S2E8: Toxic to Healthy

Karen started to manage the effects of the family toxicity from the age of twelve years. She has devoted her life, to help people communicate more effectively and resolve conflict.
Karen helps you understand how you attach meaning to relationships, and how to adapt your communication to deepen connection to enjoy healthy relationships.
Karen’s message is: “It is possible to choose a life free of coercion. When you know yourself on a deeper level, and how to communicate without conflict, you increase your self-esteem. You will feel the Power of You, and I can help you achieve it.”

Social media and contact information:

http://www.kjratcliffeconsultancy.com
karen@kjratcliffeconsultancy.com

Instagram karen.ratcliffe.coach
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenratcliffe/
https://www.facebook.com/kjratcliffeconsultancy
https://www.facebook.com/groups/takingbackmypower

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00] Damaged Parents: Welcome back to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents where devoted, helpful, willing people come to learn. Maybe just, maybe we're all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.

Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about.

In my ongoing investigation of the damaged self, I want to better understand how others view their own challenges. Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience?

My hero is the damaged person. The one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side, whole. Those who stare directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose. These are the people who inspire me to be more fully me, not in spite of my trials, but because of them let's hear from another hero.

Today's topic includes sensitive material, which may not be appropriate for children. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them. Today, we're going to talk with Karen Radcliffe. She has many roles in her life, grandmother, mother, wife, daughter-in-law cousin, and more.

We'll talk about how she didn't believe in herself and worked in the criminal justice system. And how she found health and healing let's talk

 Welcome back to Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. Today, we have Karen J Ratcliffe with us. She has a master's in criminology and criminal justice. She has worked with people on every side of the coin, and I'm so glad to have you here and to talk about struggling. From so many different perspectives, it seems like we're going to get lucky today.

I think.

[00:02:17] Karen Ragcliffe: Thank you, Angela. No, I'm very happy to be here and let's see where this conversation takes us.

[00:02:22] Damaged Parents: Yeah, because you know, when we were talking before we started, I said, you know, I think maybe sometimes we forget that. The abuser is also a victim. And you said absolutely yes. Now you've had experience. I think it was working with clients in the criminal justice system, right? Like, why don't you just tell us a little bit about what you did so that we can understand how you might have this experience of working with people on both sides of that coin, which maybe it's not a coin.

[00:02:55] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, I think my experience began when I was a community development worker working in a locality that was struggling and communicating with all people from all areas of that community began to realize that there's factionism happening even in small groups within the community. And you start to understand that for some areas, difference is really important rather than similarity.

I moved into the probation service, Which is like your prison service, but we have a probation and it's all part of the same with prisons and probation. And I became a facilitator, a tutor on CBT treatment programs.

[00:03:40] Damaged Parents: Which is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Right.

[00:03:43] Karen Ragcliffe: Yes. Yes. And we would basically do an assessment to begin with that basically showed us where, and we're talking about offenders now where the person is in that thinking and their attitudes and how they feed their worldview.

Okay. And then when they've done the program, we would do the same. The assessment to see where the change had happened and that went off somewhere else for some statistic to look at. But what I noticed in the time that I worked on these programs, I worked with addressing substance related behavior, working problem, solving, working with DV, domestic abuse and also were alcohol was

used when people were driving cars, we called it drink impaired driving. And what I noticed with people is that all people have vulnerabilities. They just have different ways of projecting their behavior. Okay. When you get to know people, and, they start to open up with you and you see some of the work that they do in the programs.

You begin to see that there is this vulnerability that is there, but they don't want to admit it. They neutralize it. Many a time. I heard the thing, the conversations of such as well. I don't want to have to go at me because so-and-so does it, or they get away with it. Or it was kind of like saying to themselves, they didn't need to do this change because other people were getting away with it and

they were seen as acceptable in society. So why do I have to change? And it is a block. It is a massive block because unless somebody is willing to see that there is a problem and that they would benefit from some changes in that thinking. It's really hard to break through.

 yeah.

[00:05:33] Damaged Parents: I'm just thinking too, as you're talking about that, and I know we're talking about offenders. I'm thinking that while they're offenders, that sometimes victims will have an experience with an offender, because we're talking about let's just say there are two different sides to the coin that I'm saying probably doesn't exist, that the victim also needs to make changes.

We've got all this support for an offender, really, I think, and maybe not so much for a victim, like a victim might get therapy or something like that. Right. But they're just not like a managed kind of forced change. Does that make sense?

[00:06:15] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, it depends on what the offense was in our country. We have somebody which is where I moved from afterwards called the victim liaison officer. So, This is what I became afterwards and how that works in our country is, and this is a UK. We have a kind of combat that basically says, if you have been offended against and the offender has received a sentence of 12 months or more, you will have information about what is happening around that person's sentence, as far as.

If that you, for parole, depending on whether their sentence is one that requires a parole and. Basically on release, you'll be able to put some, requirements in place that basically says, like geographical, you can't come into this area and exclusion zone, or you may not have contacts. So be like a no contact put in place.

And so there is something as far as the pain and the suffering from being through that experience, in some cases there is such thing as restorative justice. I don't know whether that's something that you have, but the victim has to be in a place where it's agreed that it's a considerably correct thing to do.

So it depends on the offense. But what that's about is where the victim and the offender can come together in a environment that's controlled and If the offender wants to say, sorry, and apologize. And show remorse and maybe the victim, wants to just try to understand a bit, it gives them closure, some kind of closure, how helpful that is.

I'm not really sure. Somebody who'd been through that is the only person that can answer that question. So that's not something I can do.

[00:07:59] Damaged Parents: During that timeframe, , does the victim, are they required to go and seek help or get counseling or anything like that? So that maybe they're not in the same situation again. So my perspective may be, let me try and describe what I'm thinking is that we've got two people, there was maybe a domestic violence incident or what have you.

And the offender goes into jail where there's all these programs that are available and, they can choose to learn and grow. Or they can, I don't know. Maybe they could just sit there if they wanted to, whereas the victim might still be out and about. And is there support there, right? Like. For them to learn and grow because I'm thinking maybe there's a dynamic that happens between these two people that creates this terrible mess and victim or offender may just be dependent on, someone else's decision.

[00:08:57] Karen Ragcliffe: Okay, well, no one can tell somebody else if there is no requirements through the law, what to do. Okay. And neither should they, and the best person to know if they need any help is the person who's been through the experience. And if they've got family and friends around them, maybe they are helpful and supportive.

The thing is there is no. How can I put this? There is no cure for all you can't generalize. We are human beings. We are different in the way that we are affected by something happening or the way we think about it. I mean, again, it's our own cognitive functions that determine how we deal with something, how strong we can be, how resilient.

And that a lot of the time goes to all of the experiences that you've had in your life, the caregivers, how they were for you, and maybe, you know, experiences such as being bullied or being harmed in your younger years, also that there's a projections of society, different people that you come into contact with teachers, medical professionals, the police your peers.

I mean, we are, we're like sponges.

[00:10:11] Damaged Parents: Right.

[00:10:11] Karen Ragcliffe: We grew up and we just absorb, absorb, absorb,

[00:10:16] Damaged Parents: Yeah. So it sounds like. Regardless of whether you're an offender and you've, get to go to jail or, or what have you, or you're a victim. The bottom line is we all get to choose what we do from there on, right. So just because someone's in jail, doesn't mean they're going to heal

there's tools there, but I don't know.

[00:10:37] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, I mean, I have no idea what prisons are like in America. I know that when we went in, we went in an a special project to go into prisons, to work with bringing people from the community into the prison so there were people who would have gone to prison otherwise, but haven't so that they could have a taste of what it was like working with people in prison.

And it was a kind of experiment that I was involved in. And what I would say is in prison, there are requirements, but a lot of the time you can choose what you do. But the point I still want to make here is who you are as a person is about what you have experienced in your life so far. What kind of training you have received from your parents, from your school, et cetera, but there's also our personality.

We have different personality types and we could be introverts. We could be extroverts. We could be somebody who projection acutely or who tries and he's really driven, who we are as individuals is very important when you're looking at how you're gonna live your life after an offense. If we just take that as an example, I have worked with people who have come on the groups and I have seen them months later after they've left, I haven't instigated a conversation or anything. They have come up to me and they have said, thank you. Things have changed in their life. And they've recognized what the perceived has been useful. But I also know.

that there are other people who will go on and commit further offenses.

There are no cures. There are no Definitely in any of this. And the only thing that you really have is for every professional to do what they're trained to do to reach out and always remember that you yourself have some bias. You have some prejudice. None of us are immune because we have grown in our environment with the people who have been

connected to us and those projections have projected onto us. And the best thing that anyone can do, no matter whether you've experienced crime, whether you have offended against others or whether you're somebody who works with people who find in life, difficulty in whatever way. Okay. And that is about becoming self aware, becoming aware of who you are, what matters to you, what your values are.

And that will mean what you believe. Okay. A lot of people go into this kind of work, believing that they can change the world. That's brilliant, but we have to be realistic. We will have wins and we will not have wins.

[00:13:19] Damaged Parents: is there anything that I'm thinking the answer is probably no. And yet I still need to ask the question. Is there anything that you can see ahead of time that says, okay, this person is most likely going to be successful in this person most likely is not going to be successful.

[00:13:36] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, how much power and control would be exhibited into our private lives. Is that really what we want. I mean, we've seen what's happened during the pandemic liberties of disappears. Do we really want to give up more liberties so that people can come in assesses? And what are they assessing?

Exactly. Even if you scored high, say like on something like a score sheet home. Yes. The science assesses probabilities. But if you are looking at the probabilities, all it takes is for something major to change in your life. Maybe you meet somebody who basically, it's totally different from you and you learn from that person.

You become a different person because your belief system changes your view of the world changes. And maybe you think, for example, getting healthier and fitter and eating better food, communicating with people in a different way, mixing with different people that you've never mixed with before your whole life can change around.

I mean, what I would say here is if we are self-aware, if we can actually become self-aware okay and know ourselves intimately, then we have a better chance. Of changing little things in our lives, small steps. And as we change those small things and see small results, maybe we can move on to bigger things.

But I think what we need to bring out into society is that change normal growth is normal. You are not that same person you were when you were nine or 10 years old or 15 or 25.

[00:15:09] Damaged Parents: Or even what, like a year ago, right.

[00:15:12] Karen Ragcliffe: Yes. I work with people in relationships now. Especially where conflict is.

Cause a lot of what I've done in the past has been around conflict resolution Basically for a lot of people, all of the attributes to pushing people away, not getting close, therefore avoiding any intimacy. Real intimacy has been a real problem for them. So when I hear a couple who say to me, it doesn't get me, doesn't understand , this is driving me up the wall and I can see it's affecting them.

I'm just like, well, how do you know that? Where's your evidence. What is it that you know about that person could lead you to better understand that? And then I asked them to step outside themselves and actually try to be that person and, take their perspective. And maybe if we do more of this stuff with young people, as they are growing and developing, maybe we wouldn't have some of the offenses being committed that we do get today. Because the skills are different.

[00:16:11] Damaged Parents: Right. And I just want to, because I want to clarify something that I think I'm hearing from you and you can tell me if I'm wrong. What I think I'm hearing from you is regardless of whether someone ends up in the criminal justice system or not, you know, a victim can't be certain that if someone goes to jail and does X, Y, Z, that they're going to be healed. Really,

ultimately the healing is left up to each individual person. And what that healing is for them. No one else really gets to say,

[00:16:41] Karen Ragcliffe: Well I mean I'm not a medical person. So, you know, If there's a medical issue, then the

[00:16:46] Damaged Parents: I'm talking like emotional, healing

[00:16:48] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, there's a court order, so somethings will be. In the court order, so there'll be requirements and the person will be expected to go along with those requirements. But as we all know, if you think back to a chat when you were a child, right. One thing I do know is if I was told by somebody who seemed to be a, have an authority over me, I'd got to do it and I didn't have a choice.

There's a little voice in my head that would go. Yeah.

You bet. You, you think so? Do you? Yeah. Well, I'll find a way and I have always found in my work, it is about openness, honesty, clarity, and if I want. To work with somebody. I want to know why they are resistant with me. What is the problem with moving into this direction that they've been asked to go to and for them to consider what life will be like if they did try that to really taste it, visualize it, understand it, and if they choose not to, and basically it's kind of.

Often you, , they actually see this massive gap, And this I'm going, this is your life. You've got one chance at it. This is it.

[00:17:55] Damaged Parents: And ultimately it's up to them to decide whether or not they're going to take that path regardless of whether or not they're the victim or the offender.

[00:18:03] Karen Ragcliffe: It comes back to what I said to you before. It's about the way you work with somebody. If you're given a job to work with somebody and you want to help them change and they're resistant to change and they're neutralizing absolutely everything that you are saying has been seen that they should change the best way is to challenge their reasons for not changing and to try and help them to see what their life is going to be.

I can remember saying somebody who literally didn't want to hear what I got to say. where do you see yourself in five years? And what I got was, well, I'm going to have to go back to school aren't I? And I was like, okay, so how are you going to do that? The straightaway, there was a bit wall post straight off.

And it was like, no, no, no, no everything I said, no, no, no, no, no. Because the idea of getting the qualification. The work that was going to be entailed was like really scary. And that person needed a lot of work and encouragement to get them back into that mindset of, wanting to learn. And what I'm saying here is sometimes you have to take two steps back to go one step forward.

[00:19:11] Damaged Parents: Yeah. And it sounds like also looking at the whole human and not just a blip in their past or a blip in what's happening right now. Really just keeping an open mind as to who someone can be. And I'm not sure I'm saying that, right. Because I could also see where. by using the language, I just used someone in an abusive relationship might find that as reason to stay,

[00:19:35] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, I've also, as I said, victim liaison when I was a woman's safety worker. So I used to do risk assessments for women who had first of all, it began where the partner had been told by the court to separate and there was a court order saying they couldn't be together. And so basically this was about managing the risk because we all know that sometimes when people are separated, they don't stay separated in their physical order and they get back together.

And there's lots of reasons for that. And in the time we got, that would take a whole program for me to be perfectly honest. So the way I look at it is. Again, it's about how you communicate with each person. And it's about understanding where the need to be together. Is it codependency if it's codependency, what is that codependency?

What is it that they feel the need to be together about? Where is that need? And if it is about, this desire, this love, whatever, then it's about saying, well, what about all the other things that make up a relationship? A relationship is more than sex. And so. it's about building, a greater understanding of what healthy relationships are.

And What is required, what is needed for you to actually come together and communicates in what we used to call it a pro-social way. This is kind of like listening and understanding and being able to say what you want. And the other person then saying what they want, and this is proper communication, but sometimes that doesn't happen and sometimes it can be about control and coercion. We all know that. So, there's something faulty going on.

[00:21:12] Damaged Parents: If there is something about controlling coercion, what would be something someone would notice.

[00:21:17] Karen Ragcliffe: If you are, I'm talking to your audience. Now, if you are in a relationship with somebody. Okay. And you feel that you don't have the freedom to be with your friends, family, go out on an evening out or whatever. Because your partner is saying, actually, I don't want you to go, or maybe they're doing something like taking your phone or they're just basically putting something in your way for going.

You have to ask yourself the question what's going on here. And if the conversation is that you ask, what's the problem and it's all about, well, I need you here. I was planning an evening together, et cetera. and this has all come up the blue. You need to ask yourself, is this person trying to control you?

Is the some coercion going on here? Also coercion can be around finances. If you have a shared bank account, do you have access to that money? Is it your money as well as their money? Is there any kind of restriction on how you spend it? Are you being told how to spend it. Again

that's coercion? Same with the children making decisions about the children. Is it a mutual decision or is this coming from your partner rather than you? And the main thing for me is, do you feel safe? Do you feel able to be in your home without fear of being harmed and I mean shouted at as well, raised voices or like a little shove or something like that, if that is going on, it's very unhealthy.

And that is about your safety because there are things you can do to increase your safety. And the first thing I'd say is if you've got a friend that you totally trust, talk to that friend. Okay. Tell them as much as possible. I don't really want to go into safety planning in detail on here because also people who may be in a relationship who are controlling will be listening to this.

But if anybody wants to message me after this and ask me, what do I do about a safety plan? I'm quite happy to have a quick conversation with you about having your own individual safety plan. It's something that I do in the services that I provide, but, as I'm on here today, Angela, if somebody is feeling that there is anything going on the way there don't feel free to be who they need to be in every single way, because they feel that their partner is restricting that freedom. Okay, please. I am quite happy to talk to you. All right.

[00:23:50] Damaged Parents: And, and you're on Facebook, LinkedIn, you also have your website, https://KJRatcliffeconsultancy.com . So you guys, you can reach out to her many different ways and that information will be in the show notes. I think my next question is just, is there a point at which you know, You see these people in these relationships , that if they get help, they can turn it around.

[00:24:15] Karen Ragcliffe: Definitely. I think everybody can turn their life around no matter what is going on. But first of all, you have to recognize there is a problem. This is the big thing, because we're very good at telling ourselves stories and just literally hiding away or, saying no to everything. And we really have to say, yes, we have to say yes, I have a problem.

And I want to deal with it and getting help. If it's domestic abuse, there will be domestic abuse services across America. I know you've got one main one haven't you?

[00:24:47] Damaged Parents: I think around the world

[00:24:49] Karen Ragcliffe: Yeah, well, every

country, yeah.

[00:24:51] Damaged Parents: yeah.

yeah. just because quite honestly, we have an audience around the world which is just beautiful. So I think that I would think in different countries , it may or may not be more difficult depending on the environment. Right.

[00:25:03] Karen Ragcliffe: The one thing I do want to announce, and I'm not trying to push stuff here. And, you know, just going to say this, I've set up a Facebook group which is taking back my power and we will be, communicating around safety and around getting help with coercion and control in this group, which is why it's called taking back my power.

Because until you actually recognize that your power is being taken away. You can't really turn it around, turn your life around. And I do a lot of work on conflict resolution. So there's something else that, may have be of benefit to you. What I would say is Right.

now with the pandemic, et cetera, I know throughout the world, That there are many people living in their homes Right, now with no freedoms to get out of it.

Feeling very coerced, feeling very alone. And if I can help in any way, please come and look for that group because if you join our group, you can put out a shout. And if I'm not there to answer it, somebody else, well, because that's what this group is about women supporting women, basically. And if you're a man what I would say to you is just contact me and I will have a chat with you.

Through the messaging service. If you go into my Facebook KJ, Ratcliffe consultancy, you will see that, that there is an email button you can press that basically sends a message through to me.

[00:26:28] Damaged Parents: Right, because we don't talk about that a lot. Actually, what men are abused also. There, there are women, anger management classes out there, right. That are strictly focused on that. And, gosh, I don't know. What do you do about that? Right. As far as to do those statistics or anything.

[00:26:47] Karen Ragcliffe: I know the UK statistics is about five to 7%, but at the moment with the pandemic, do we really know any statistics whatsoever because information is not getting collected in the same way. I don't know, in your country or in other countries, how many extra phone calls have been to the domestic abuse services?

I mean, I know that we have I think it's called respect in the UK. That is a service for men who are perpetrators, if they are wanting help too, because I think that's just equally as important if you are, whether you're male or female, if you're perpetrating coercion and control or violence, to have someone to talk to about that to actually help you cause.

whatever is going on in your life, it's obviously not serving you. So it's about doing something about it. And as I mentioned earlier, we can't change until we accept that as a problem. So you need to accept the problem.

[00:27:40] Damaged Parents: Yeah. And it sounds like even as a perpetrator, someone may not even realize they're being a perpetrator, but they realize maybe they're feeling coerced and controlled and then they do something. And now they're considered the perpetrator. I mean, it can be a very confusing dynamic.

[00:27:56] Karen Ragcliffe: And that is why labeling people as perpetrator or victim can sometimes be a difficult thing. And I just say that people who need help. You say to me, I have a problem And I need help. My question is, well, okay. How can I help? What is it that you need? Because you're the person who knows what your problem is until you tell somebody else and explain and give detail.

Somebody else will only make assumptions. And again, I come back to the prejudice the stereotype and the bias. We don't want any of that. So we want people to feel confident enough to be honest about saying, I have a problem. I need help. Where can I get that help? And we need people to do that.

[00:28:37] Damaged Parents: And I'm thinking if in a relationship it's okay. If only one person says I need help, like both people may not think there's a problem. And that is okay. And because if one person has a problem, then maybe if it let's say it was in a relationship I had, then maybe my job is to be there and to support.

and maybe then I might start recognizing, oh, maybe there is a problem. Maybe I do need to make some changes. Right?

[00:29:07] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, yes, but there's some times this is where the conflicts come about because when you're in a relationship, funnily enough, we have these weird things called expectations. They're like little stories that we've sorta told each other. But in our head we're saying something different. So we're talking, but the other person is hearing, what were we really thinking?

Because the words aren't much in our thinking and it's just a mismatch. And the other person then acts in response to what they've heard, not what you thought you were saying.

[00:29:40] Damaged Parents: So the response would be in what I thought, I thought they said, and their response to me would be into what they thought. I thought, I no I'm messing that up, but I think you get the drift.

[00:29:54] Karen Ragcliffe: Yeah, because there's no clarity. And sometimes we put these light little little words in don't we like maybe could be. I think I feel that you do not listen, or I feel unheard in this relationship. I don't think anything I say matters now, they can't be any clearer, no can you, but we don't do that because that is a challenge.

[00:30:17] Damaged Parents: Right. And I think what I hear you saying is because I want to clarify, right, this is, I think this is a good thing that I'm asking that question. That it's important to clarify because. I may be interpreting it very differently or for me to respond

this is what I think you said. And they're also going to be times, at least for me, I know where I just respond because I'm either stressed or distracted or tired. Heaven forbid, I'm having a bad pain day. And so usually for me, I try to warn people, Hey, this is where I'm at right now. or, just give them a heads up if it's a really bad day so that maybe I can be given a little bit of latitude to be like, if you really don't get it, please check in with me.

[00:31:04] Karen Ragcliffe: Yeah, there's nothing wrong saying to people. This is who I am today. Treat me accordingly. It's about communication, but we human beings, I tell you, we sometimes fail badly in our communication.

[00:31:19] Damaged Parents: Terribly a lot of times too, right?

[00:31:22] Karen Ragcliffe: Yeah. I mean, we say things we don't really mean because we think the other person wants to hear that.

And then we wonder why we feel sort of down a negative, because we didn't say what we wanted to say. And it really is about when picking that, and this is a lot of the work that I do. And so then when that person responds to what we've said, We then feel more aggrieved because they're not responding in the way we want them to respond.

And they are thinking that they're doing good by you and well, they're not because you didn't ask for or say what was really honestly, in your heart.

[00:32:01] Damaged Parents: Yeah, that gets down to one of the, I always tell the kids, hint, there are so many different things I can do with a hint. I can get it and ignore it. I can misinterpret it. There's a couple more, but it's like a list of at least three or four. So I know there's at least one more that it does mean no good to hint about what I want. Yeah. And then the expectation. Oh, but I hinted. And then I get into this story. I start telling myself if I'm hinting about why they should a coulda, woulda, and here I am only hinting about what I need and want.

[00:32:41] Karen Ragcliffe: and then when they don't react in the way you want.

you feel aggrieved and it can lead to some form of argument. And then when you get to the argument stage, the other person becomes defensive. So you become more escalated. And then we have complex, and this is what I've been trying to work with people to do a lot of, to help them to understand all this stuff so that when a conflict happens, it can go, whoa.

Hold on, what's this bout and you ask that person what it is they need. And when do you hear what comes out? You say, did I not make myself clear? Well they're going obviously, no, and you go. I am really sorry about that. Cause that's another thing humility really need to learn to use more humility in our communication.

And then it's about what, how can we make this work? How can we make this better? And that's when the deescalation happens, because we're really listen. We're not listening to that chatter in our head go in. Well, if he says this, but I'm going to do that. And we deescalate It

[00:33:45] Damaged Parents: It sounds like learning to really listen to what was said and not the emotion, which I think what we're talking about is super easy. If I'm in my, I'm going to call it my logical mind and probably a bit harder when I'm in an emotional place. So what would be some things that help in that situation?

[00:34:08] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, the are tactics that you can use that skills. We don't connect with our emotions enough. Our emotions can run a mock with us, especially when we're in a defensive situation, because we're trying to protect ourselves because it's all about us then and the other person really isn't that important anymore.

So when you recognize that this is happening, you can feel your heart pumping your muscles, getting tight you don't feel sort of relaxed and probably don't feel confident because when we feel anxious, those emotions run a mark. Okay. And we've all heard of the fight flight freeze. Well in a conflict situation?

Sometimes people do freeze. And so the other person then moves into fight because they think they've got advantage. I was lots of dynamics around this, but the one thing, if you're recognizing this is happening to you, is to actually slow your breathing down for a moment.

If you can retain eye contact, then it's about saying I need to go.. And I just need to take a break for a moment. Are you okay with that? Because then you're asking if they're okay. So you're building like a bit more of a brick wall towards a no sort of like a meeting points. And then it's about just moving away for a moment, slowing your breathing down further, actually thinking, putting that brain into action, not the emotions and saying, what are the emotions that I am feeling right now.

Okay. You need to understand what they are, if it's anger or it's anxiety for you. Okay. You need to be aware of that. And it's about what emotion do I want to feel right now. And if it's kind of, I want to feel relaxed. I want to feel sort of, I wouldn't say happy, but you know, maybe connected. I want to feel that I'm okay.

Then it's about saying, okay. I need to move to that place. And there are ways you can do this is about fixing your brain. I'm focusing on visualizing on the thing that you want, which will be your end result of. I want this sorted. I want us to hug each other. I want us to feel emotionally connected.

How do I do that? I have to change my emotion, my body language. I have to be more aware of the tone of my voice and the words the time using. So maybe just for a moment, think of a script about what you can say. When you go back, you go back and you say, I just want to say. And then whatever it is, you've decided you new script that you want to say, and you keep your potty language calm.

And if you can smile and notice sounds like you're putting your smile out from nowhere, but when one person smiles, it's very hard for the other person not to smile. And that's about then saying. Do you need a hug on the other person will probably give you a hug back that it's about what we going to do about this.

This is silly and own it. It is silly. Argument is silly. There are ways of communicating without it, but you just have to take that moment to recognize where you're going. Don't let it go any further. Stop it. And then it's about really listening to that other person, shutting that chatter down and listening with your heart, your mind and your ears.

And then when you've listened, maybe feed back what you've heard, used some of their own words, use your own, but just feed it back. And then when you've got that understanding, say, so what do you want to do? Offer it to them? Let them communicate with you. You then reciprocate. If you agree, or you don't.

And it may be that you don't reach a real agreement, but you've connected. That's what's important. So it's okay. Should we leave it for there for now? Let's think on this and we'll come back tomorrow and you've left friends. You're more intimate. The tone has gone down and you never know. It might not feel that important tomorrow.

[00:38:07] Damaged Parents: Yeah. And if you're dealing with someone who's experienced trauma and is having a trauma reaction or something like that, sometimes it seems to me like it's really important to just stop. Sometimes it's important to just stop, allow that room and you're nodding your head. Like yes, you're. You're on I'm on the right track guys.

This is awesome. I love it.

[00:38:30] Karen Ragcliffe: When you've experienced trauma. Okay. Your emotional part of your brain, it can go absolutely berserk over the slightest trigger. But the thing is when you've been in a trauma situation, It's really hard for you to be able to dissect that and, getting help getting the right help is really important.

One of the things that they will do when they help you with, if you see a therapist or whoever it should be about addressing what your triggers are, so that you can recognize them. And then if you're in a relationship with someone who you really care about and you feel able to trust them. Talk about your triggers.

Talk about the things that trigger you, let them help you with the trauma that you've experienced, because even when you come out with therapy those memories, et cetera, there's still there. But they're not as important because you've worked through them and you know that you're not to blame.

There is no shame and you've forgiven yourself for any emotion or whatever that you've been feeling or, or whatever you needed to forgive yourself for. But the element of that trauma is with you for the rest of your life, but you don't let it own you. You own it. And that is the difference when you've worked through it, but there will be triggers.

They will be buried deep. You will have worked with them, but they will come out and that's been my experience because I, myself experienced trauma in the past. That's why I've ended up in all of this work. And I do all of what I do is because I kinda know what it feels like, to be totally unheard, feel like you're to blame for everything and feel absolute shame.

So that's why I decided to get into this area of work really and train in the way that I've done.

[00:40:10] Damaged Parents: Yeah. It sounds like the, what you're saying is that that trigger may show up again . And then you'll have tools to deal with that trigger. So that emotion , that influx of intense emotion may happen again and maybe being willing or being open to the fact that it will, because there's not a quote unquote fix.

[00:40:30] Karen Ragcliffe: No.

[00:40:31] Damaged Parents: Yeah. Oh, we have just talked so long today. I have, we've only got three minutes left. I usually ask for three tips or tools. Did you have some you wanted to share real quick before we end the podcast?

[00:40:43] Karen Ragcliffe: Well, I think we've covered quite a few. I'll just pull out some of what we've covered.

[00:40:47] Damaged Parents: we have, we have.

[00:40:49] Karen Ragcliffe: Basically. Okay. Don't let conflict escalate. Get in touch with your own emotional feeling and what's going on with you separate from the conflict. And then when you're ready, go back and talk amicably. Always if you've experienced trauma if you were in a relationship with somebody and you trust them, and there is that deep, deep connection, if you can.

Let them know something about what might trigger you, because they can be your backup. If you're in a situation that can help you so that you don't need to feel I'm in a bad place. I suppose the third one has got to be become self-aware. I say this all the time, learn about who you are, what matters to you?

What do you believe? What are your values? And Look at yourself to see if a, essentially that you need to change because change is normal. It's growth, it's hard development just as children where you developed as adults, we can continue to develop too. And I can say from my own point of view, it's absolutely wonderful you know, if you're not doing it, give it a try.

[00:41:57] Damaged Parents: I love that. Change is good. And guess what? We do it. All of us do it. Even if we want to hold someone else to not doing it, they do it anyway. I love it. Thank you so much, Karen.

[00:42:09] Karen Ragcliffe: Thank you so much. I have really enjoyed talking with you today, Angela. And thank you for listening everybody. And I hope you've got to the end of this really long interview.

[00:42:19] Damaged Parents: I'm sure they will.

 Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. We really enjoyed talking to Karen about how she makes a difference in relationships that are toxic. We especially liked when she spoke in depth about what abuse is. To unite with other damaged people, connect with us on YouTube.

Look for damaged parents. We'll be here next week. Still relatively damaged. See you then.