S2E67: Tammy Dunnett - How to Recover from Bullying at Work

Tammy Dunnett is an ex-target of workplace bullying turned communication coach and CEO of Relationship Revolution. Her goal is to change the way ‘relationship’ is done and she helps others confidently handle difficult conversations so they can create better connections and emerge with their relationship intact.

Social media and contact information: Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/MyRelationshiprevolution/
Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/conquerconflictnow
IG: https://www.instagram.com/tammy.dunnett/
LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tammy-dunnett/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TammyDunnett
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@tammy.dunnett
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgYZQ5EnOEmosbglZhuRxyg

Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Damaged Parents: Welcome back to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents were bullied, militant, loving people come to learn. Maybe just maybe were all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.

[00:00:20] Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about. In my ongoing investigation of the damaged self, I want to better understand how others view their own challenges.

[00:00:39] Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience? My hero is you the one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side, whole.

[00:01:02] You who stares directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover your purpose. You are the people who inspire me to be more fully me. Not in spite of my trials, but because of them. Let's hear from another hero. Today's topic includes some sort of material which may not be appropriate for children. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them.

[00:01:33] Today, we're going to talk with Tammy Dunnett. She has many roles in her life. Mom, aunt, sister, daughter, wife, and more. We'll talk about how she was in the military as a nurse and found herself in a situation where she was bullied and how she found health and healing. Let's talk.

[00:01:50] Welcome back to Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. Today we have an amazing guest, Tammy Dunnett. She is an ex target of workplace bullying turned communication coach and CEO of Relationship Revolution. Her goal is to change the way relationship is done, and she helps others confidently handle difficult conversations so that they can create better connections and emerge with their relationships.

[00:02:19] If you wanna find her now, you can find her lots of places for this podcast though, we're gonna focus on LinkedIn and just look up Tammy Dunnett with two ends and two t's. Tammy, welcome to the show.

[00:02:31] Tammy Dunnett: Thanks for having me, Angela. That was a beautiful introduction.

[00:02:34] Damaged Parents: Well, you know, you wrote it so

[00:02:36] Tammy Dunnett: That's the way you said it. I loved it.

[00:02:41] Damaged Parents: You know, I gotta give credit work credits due I am really intrigued to hear your story because I, I actually try not to go learn too much about someone before they tell me their story. and my thought is, if I go and learn too much, then I assume that my listeners know too. And that can just be bad, right?

[00:03:01] Because then we're having this conversation that nobody can really engage, you know? Like,

[00:03:07] Tammy Dunnett: Sure. It's like watching the movie and then reading the book.

[00:03:11] Damaged Parents: Right, Right. But the interesting thing about reading the book is you get all this more in depth stuff

[00:03:16] Tammy Dunnett: the juicy

[00:03:16] Damaged Parents: after the movie. Like you get the background and it's like, Oh, unless it's a really badly done movie, and then we're in big trouble, You know?

[00:03:25] Because then the book just is totally different.

[00:03:28] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, you always wanna read the book first cuz there's so much more you get out of it.

[00:03:33] Damaged Parents: I agree. I agree. However of what if the world happened in the workplace, because I am certain, I would think probably everyone has in this world has either witnessed or been party to workplace bullying.

[00:03:50] Tammy Dunnett: Your intuition would be fairly accurate. I mean, the research shows that 85% of people in healthcare, that's my background, healthcare experience or witness bullying on a regular basis. your intuition's pretty correct there. So for me, I was actually near 40 years old and I found myself in a relationship that I just couldn't seem to navigate.

[00:04:13] And I kept saying to myself, Oh, you'll figure this out cuz you've dealt with things in the past. You know, as drawing on my past experiences of having hard conversations with leaders and colleagues and friends. But for some reason, this one I just couldn't figure out and my approach. I'm air quoting for those who are listening assertive.

[00:04:31] But as I reflect back now, like I'm in a place now where I can look back and assess my own interaction there too. Anyways, I am sure it crossed the lines of passive aggressive and aggressive at times because I was feeling so stuck, so vulnerable, and so frustrated.

[00:04:48] Damaged Parents: So you're saying your own communication in this bullying situation as you look at it, could have been on the passive aggressive side sometimes, and then maybe more aggressive other times just because of the feelings that were coming up inside of you.

[00:05:04] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, and I think that's really common when we think we're standing up for ourselves and we think we're advocating and we're doing all the right things that we don't notice when we're maybe crossing lines or we're actually contributing to the situation. Now, I wanna just go on record that I'm. Saying that is the case for everybody who's being bullied.

[00:05:20] There are certainly instances where the bully is truly a bully and they are intentionally targeting you, and so it's harder to uncover how to move forward without supports.

[00:05:33] Damaged Parents: Well, even then, I'm just thinking about when someone is bullying. Standing up to the bully, and I've, I've seen this in, kids at school or, in just day to day life is very scary. And so sometimes I would think when that fear comes up, then I'm, even though I'm really working to remain calm, maybe I'm not so calm. Right? Or I'm saying things very abruptly and angrily,

[00:06:03] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, right. We kinda lose that self-awareness piece cuz we're in that fight or flight right now. Did I know all this stuff back? No, I thought I knew, but I didn't. It wasn't until after my experience of being bullied that I researched bullying in my masters of nursing, and I really started to go, Oh, that was a red flag.

[00:06:21] Oh, that was definitely bullying. But before that, I just thought I had a bad boss. I thought I had a micromanager. Somebody who is young, untrained, and someone who I really thought that I could help develop by teaching her how to treat me, but it didn't go. And in fact, we spiraled.

[00:06:41] Damaged Parents: Oh, I was gonna say, isn't that interesting? Like someone as far as like a supervisor and then you having that perception, Oh, maybe I can help teach her how to treat me, and maybe that will help her. So like really trying to come from that helpful perspective, but maybe she wouldn't perceive it that way at.

[00:07:02] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, no, and she definitely didn't because when I look back at our very first, the first two days that we worked together officially really set the tone for our relationship going. Right. She laid out this beautiful plan for my year. This is in the military, so you just can't quit that job just to put that out there.

[00:07:18] You have to stay, otherwise you go to jail. And so she had this beautiful plan for me for the year and I thought, Oh my God, this is amazing. I was really impressed with how much effort she put into planning out my career path. There were a few things on there that I'm like, Well, I don't wanna do it this way.

[00:07:33] Can we try it this way? You know, I wanted to have a conversation and then that's when I learned for her, it wasn't a conversation. This was a thou shalt do and that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. So at the end of our first meeting, we didn't leave there really like as colleagues, as friends. We just kind of left it the ugliness.

[00:07:50] And the next morning is when she came back and she wanted to threaten me. She did threaten me, sorry, with a charge of insubordination for having an opinion on the pathway of my career. And my response to her was not anything that would be connecting. It was bring it. I'd like to see that stick. So in that moment I thought I was standing up for myself, but now that I reflect back on it and I hear it cuz I know that there was a lot more like, Huh, Bring it lady in that tone, Did that contribute to our ongoing challenges? A hundred percent.

[00:08:25] Damaged Parents: Yeah. I love that you're able to recognize where you were creating potentially more problems. I mean, and that gets really hard. I mean, when we're talking about workplace bullying or even in abusive relationships and things like that, I think it's really hard to differentiate sometimes. What is this really bullying?

[00:08:47] Am I contributing and am I contributing it to it? And can it be both yet? Right? Like, and same with abusive relationships, especially emotionally abusive relationships. Is it really abuse or is there, Am I contributing right? Like, and how do you even begin to tell the difference?

[00:09:10] Tammy Dunnett: That's such a great question. That self-awareness piece investing in that skill set that you have is probably a first step and reflecting on action. So it's difficult to reflect in the moment until we build the skill set so often. I don't know about you, but growing up I used to always walk away feeling embarrassed and shy cause I didn't have a good comeback.

[00:09:29] And I would walk away and have these, all these conversations with myself and I go, Oh, I should have said that. And, Oh, I should have said that. And so reflecting on action helps you see what you brought good and what you're doing that's maybe contributing to your own unhappiness maybe it's a boundary, maybe it's not serving the relationship, but the serving of one.

[00:09:48] Like there's so many things that we could learn from our experiences that then it becomes intuitive to put it into the experience when you're actually experiencing it. But it takes time.

[00:09:58] Damaged Parents: So putting the new behavior or the more healthy behavior into that experience when you can. So I would think that some people when, especially if they are the victim of abuse and things like that, when first figuring this out might be confused. Like I, no, it was all.

[00:10:23] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah.

[00:10:23] Damaged Parents: And did you feel like that at the beginning of trying to work through all of this

[00:10:28] Tammy Dunnett: Yes. This is big head nods for those who are listening. Yes, a hundred percent. I thought it was all her. I, you know, that's why I was so, Focused on showing her how to treat me and very intentional about how I was interacting with her. Like you can even hear it now intentional and my words are very like sharp almost.

[00:10:45] Cuz that's how I think I was interacting with her at the very beginning. And to be honest, after that first interaction where she said, I wanna charge you with insubordination, and I said, Bring it. When she walked away, in my mind it was like tail tucked between the legs and I'm like, That that's all over, but that wasn't all over.

[00:11:03] In fact, I think that just gave her the fuel to lean into her bully tendencies because we all have them. We all have potential to be a bully, and we all exhibit bully like behaviors. The key thing is intention. And I think she just naturally leaned into it because she had a position power, and as a result, like years, it was four years almost underneath her, and I got super sick.

[00:11:27] I had never had anxiety before. I had never had panic attacks. I got to the point where I was afraid to be on the same floor with her, to be in the building, to scanning parking lots, to being afraid to drive eight kilometers to work, and I was like frozen in my house as a result of.

[00:11:47] Damaged Parents: Wow. I could see that happening with the supervisor, especially when there is that power, it's a supervisor and, and if they believe that they're gonna, if they wanna run more like a dictatorship, then what's the word? A cooperative , maybe

[00:12:04] Tammy Dunnett: Collaborative, cooperative.

[00:12:05] Damaged Parents: There we go. Collaborative. And you know, which would be really hard if you're used to collaborative versus do as I say,

[00:12:16] Tammy Dunnett: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:17] Damaged Parents: and so, I mean, I don't know how, This is actually a really interesting question.

[00:12:23] I mean, you are stuck there quite literally because you couldn't leave and how did you. Even co. I mean, I'm thinking therapists maybe, maybe not. I mean, it sounds like you really spiraled down pretty far.

[00:12:40] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, I certainly did for the first two years, I didn't know she was a bully, and it sounds almost ridiculous to say it out loud now, but I honestly just thought I had a micromanager, that bad boss scenario and um hmm. Whatever, I'll deal with it. Like I had a lot of resilience. And then the two year mark, a colleague came to me and she was new to the organization a year after me.

[00:13:00] And she said, I'm really glad I got to know you. And I'm like, Well, that's really cool. That's kind of a weird thing to say. And there was a flag in my head and I'm like, Why did you say that? Like, I like that you like like me, but where'd that come from? And that's when she disclosed to me that our boss, my bully, had warned her about me and to watch her back around me.

[00:13:21] And that was the moment I knew I had a bully. That was when I'm like, Ah, no wonder nothing's working. Because I'm dealing with something I've never really dealt with before. I've had lots of bully like. Instances that I was able to, you know, relatively quickly resolve. But this gave me insight. It didn't change my strategy.

[00:13:38] So, cause I didn't know any better, I just got louder, I got bigger, I made more noise, I filled in more grievances. I just did the same things, but with more. Emphasis, you know? And that was when my health started to degrade because I realized I didn't have any power influence, or I felt I didn't have any power influence.

[00:13:56] I wanna be very clear on that. I felt I had no power or influence because I couldn't see it. I didn't see what my old power was. And part of that was looking at how I was engaging and showing up because every time I resisted her, she just pushed more. You know, like there's different ways to engage and I didn't know any.

[00:14:16] Damaged Parents: So what would you have changed from getting bigger and doing what you did to now? I mean, if you were in that same situation right now, what would you do differently?

[00:14:27] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, so what I've come to learn is that the label assert. Was part of my problem because I felt like I was in the behaviors of someone who was assertive and I was doing the right things and I was holding onto that label. I did not wanna be an avoider, no way that would repulse me. Like, you know, there were things about the other behavior sets that wouldn't have served my mind. But I have learned that those labels actually keep us stuck in boxes. And I couldn't be anything other than assertive, and in my mind, assertive in this case meant stand up and advocate and continue to be a, a voice in a place where things are not right. But there's a different way. And so in my research, what I have found is that there's different energies that we all go through, and we, we do have these all in common.

[00:15:12] And so instead of assertive, I needed to learn how to share safe. I need to learn how to engage in a conversation that didn't create more defense because I was creating a lot more defense

[00:15:25] in the ways like I was approaching it.

[00:15:27] Damaged Parents: So sharing safely would mean shifting out of I need to be assertive and protect myself to maybe be more open or what really do you mean by that?

[00:15:42] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. There's actually four different energies that I teach and one is called pausing. So you know, when people say they're an avoider, they, they label themselves like that. So like, Honorably, like, Oh no, I'm an avoider. I could never do that. Like I could never speak into that moment.

[00:15:59] And then they can't get outta that box, which is why they can't see the possibility for them to share. So the energy that they're using is pausing. They're moving away from the conflict. They're taking some space. For themselves to decrease the level of response and the reaction to pick their moment, to watch and observe, to decide how they wanna interact.

[00:16:20] That feels like movement, and it feels very different than avoiding, And I have to go into that cuz I'm a strong speaking energy, which is why I was very active and vocal. But as a speaking energy, I need to know that I can come into my pausing energy, take a stand down, think about the situation, get to the core of the problem because I was fighting about the way she was treating me and that just.

[00:16:46] More of the focus than the actual issue of the tasks that we were discussing and how we were going to accomplish them if they became bigger. But I needed to know I could step into a different energy and I need to go into pausing and then I'll just finish the loop if you want. Kind of go through all of them.

[00:17:03] Yeah. So pausing is an important energy and we tend to think that avoiders will never get resolution cuz they don't want it. They do want it, they just don't know how. And that's why they go into this. And they all end in i n g on purpose because it is movement. It's not a label that you're putting on.

[00:17:21] This is a place that you're journeying through. So pausing is one of the first things. The second is asking and understanding. I didn't ask any questions. I just said, Hey, here's my ideas, cuz I'm a speaking energy. I shared my thoughts and she didn't like them cuz she's a speaking energy and she shared her thoughts.

[00:17:39] Neither of us stopped to ask and understand. Why we both felt the other was important. Like our, our processes were important. So asking and understanding is the second energy. And sometimes we don't recognize them cuz they're joking or they're using sarcasm or they're beating around the bush cuz they're testing the water.

[00:17:59] So sometimes we don't recognize that they're having conflict because of the way they approach it.

[00:18:03] Damaged Parents: Mm.

[00:18:05] Like a hint,

[00:18:06] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, that's right. Like it's when someone's over too late and you wanna go to bed. Woo. Look at the time we don't come out and say, Hey, you gotta go, because sometimes that's too abrupt. So we, we ask and understand, and then the speaking and sharing safely is the third energy.

[00:18:23] And the last one is the doing, which we often don't talk about, but there are those people who just go, Oh, this is the problem. I got an answer. Are you just gonna solve? But they don't realize that that can cause tension with somebody who needs answers, like asking energy and doing energy. The people who need information can't do because they don't have enough to feel competent to move forward so they can get into conflict.

[00:18:45] Damaged Parents: Right. That makes a lot of sense. And recognizing that there are different people in the workplace. I mean, part of the thing that I know that has been talked about in the last few years is diversity in the workplace. you can't have diversity and not have conflict,

[00:19:03] Tammy Dunnett: Yes, and you know what? I just love that. That just made me had a aha moment is about also about diversity and conflict engagement. We have prescribed that assertive communication is the gold standard, and I refute that. I don't think assertive is the gold standard. I think agility is the gold standard and you need to go through pausing, asking, sharing, and doing for the complete cycle in order to get resolution that lasts.

[00:19:29] Damaged Parents: Yeah. And that would be really important because it, when you're bringing together all of these people from different backgrounds, you know, one of the things I like to say is with a people with disabilities, some of the positive things that, that a lot of, I think, people with abilities don't think about or abilities that, I don't have or, someone else with a disability might not have is the creativity.

[00:19:53] Is there, but then also I know plenty of people with disabilities and, and I myself was one of them at one point where like you were talking about like standing up and, but no, this is how it is. And I think that for me that was one of those times because I didn't feel safe in voicing that. But what I've learned.

[00:20:14] Is that sometimes being quiet is actually more helpful, or sometimes being gentle is more helpful, and yelling and screaming is usually the last thing I would want to do

[00:20:26] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah.

[00:20:27] Damaged Parents: no one hears me,

[00:20:30] Tammy Dunnett: That's right. And because it creates defense, you know, and when I think back to my interaction with my Bully Boss, I won't name her my Bully boss. And we were both in speaking energy, it just meant that we were both sharing, but we weren't uncovering anything. Right. So I had all the answers. That's what a speaking energy does, is they have all the answers and they're gonna show, share with you how to get there. And so I would say, I would like to do it this way. And she would go, No, you can't. And I'm like, Well, of course I can. But not one of us stopped to say, Well, tell me what would be beneficial of that to you? How would this make it more successful for us? Right. Like, not one of us stopped to understand the other person's position at all.

[00:21:06] Damaged Parents: You were locked in conflict, it sounds like, Like there was just no way out because no one wanted to, or no one was able to, I don't, I don't wanna say wanted to, but was capable at that point in

[00:21:16] time of saying, what does that mean?

[00:21:18] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, we were not capable. Mm-hmm. ,

[00:21:20] Damaged Parents: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:21] Tammy Dunnett: was no one in the workplace to help me. Like I was reaching out saying, How do I deal with this? I've never dealt with this before. Once I knew I had a bully and I couldn't find any resources, and they were all just like, My hands are tied. I can't help you.

[00:21:32] I don't know. I. And I get lots of bad advice and a lot of people hear this, right? Just keep your head low. Just come in and do the work and go home. Don't raise any fuss. And I was actually told once if I put in a grievance, I would look like I was the one that had the problem. And I'm like, No, but this isn't right.

[00:21:49] Like I still need to follow the process cuz it's all I have available to me. So mentoring would've been fabulous, but it's not their fault cuz we're not taught how to have these really hard conversations.

[00:22:00] Damaged Parents: I'm thinking in the military, when I think of the military, I think of you know, bootcamp things we've seen. I don't think of communication,

[00:22:10] I don't think of I, I think of very strong leaders. And yeah, like no communication, there's, because you have to just prove yourself. So I would think at that point it kind of becomes somewhat of a, it could become somewhat of a breathing ground for unhealthy communication.

[00:22:29] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, I, that does exist to some extent. I think there's more healthy conversations in the military than we know based on what social media puts out there on TV and stuff. But that hierarchy is an important factor. For sure, and it doesn't just exist in the military, but there's a unique piece to it in the military in that you're owned 24 7, they can tell you what to do and you need to follow commands, that kind of thing.

[00:22:54] Damaged Parents: Well, right, And I'm just thinking of implicit bias, right? So there's already this bias going in from what we've seen on TV and X, Y, Z or what we've heard from other people. And then we get there. And whereas it might be different, there's still this bias. we're carrying around that says if I don't do what's what they say or if I, you know, if I even try to have this conversation, maybe it's not going to work.

[00:23:20] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm smiling a little bit because in the background I hear my husband, not literally, but in the background, I hear my husband telling me I was gonna be put in jail the moment I joined the military cuz I talk back too much . So I don't think I had a bias towards that. Like, I'm very comfortable with hierarchy and, and finding my ground, but I definitely have a bias towards her age.

[00:23:43] She was younger than me and her inexperience, and I let that become part of the.

[00:23:47] Damaged Parents: Mm. Okay. Now you just said something really interesting part of the story, so there was also this very big story that you told yourself about everything.

[00:23:59] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. It's what we do. It's how we make sense of the world.

[00:24:04] Damaged Parents: what was, I mean, it sounded like you stayed there for four years and didn't find any healing during the four years in my

[00:24:12] Tammy Dunnett: Oh yeah. Okay. No, there actually was healing at the end. I was gonna say. Yeah, there was no healing. But there was, because I had to, There are times when being assertive, again, air quoting that one and aggressive. Are appropriate and they weren't finding me a safe workplace cause I refused. I was like four stress leaves.

[00:24:30] I was on medications for sleep, anxiety, I was in therapy. All of the things that they do to help you stay healthy, to be in a workplace that makes you ill. Which as a nurse, that just blew my mind as to how effed up this is because we weren't solving the problem between us. We were just remedying my environment so that I could stay in the same place where she hurts me.

[00:24:53] And I'm like, This is crazy. And so I had to insist that I was not coming back to that building. And I actually worked outta the library for a little while until they found me an alternate place to work. And it was in that alternate place where the people were kind. I always told them, it's like I was a bird that just flew into the window.

[00:25:13] You know, like they're damaged and you bring 'em into the house in their little box and you feed them. That's how I saw myself in that, and I'm getting emotional thinking about it in that new workplace because they were the kindest, gentlest people and they helped me rebuild myself.

[00:25:27] Yeah, so there was

[00:25:28] healing in the

[00:25:30] Damaged Parents: I was gonna say, was there, were you ever able to what's the word I'm looking for? connect with her. Did you ever do any work with the supervisor and ever heal that?

[00:25:41] Tammy Dunnett: No. Funny, funny story. The first time I was paid to do a keynote speech on workplace bullying was, well, I wanna say like almost eight years after I walked into the hotel room and there was multiple events happening. And as I'm walking past down to my room, She was there. It was the first time I had seen her in eight years, and she was there in the same building that I was giving my very first keynote talk about workplace building and how to resolve the issues.

[00:26:10] Now is that not irony?

[00:26:12] Damaged Parents: That is, but what came up for you inside

[00:26:15] Tammy Dunnett: so much. So much came up for me. I was like shaking like crazy and it got into my event, which thank goodness she was not a part of that event. She was next door. But I went to the event plan and I told her what had happened. I said, I can't believe this. I just walked past my bully and I am triggered.

[00:26:32] I had 90 minutes before I was going on, I was the closing. And, you know, I was able to settle down some nerves, but when I got up on stage, I just told everybody, I said, Hey, listen, like this just happened. So if you notice, cause I tell my story a little bit in my speech. I said, If you notice me getting emotional, just know it's because I just had this experience.

[00:26:50] I might need a few moments, but I will still be with you. So they were very um, graceful and understanding.

[00:26:57] Damaged Parents: That's beautiful that you felt comfortable enough to say, I just had this experience. And actually, I would think in talking about bullying, it might be important for them to recognize the emotion that comes up behind that trauma.

[00:27:13] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. Right. Cause we all think leaving is healing

[00:27:17] Damaged Parents: mm.

[00:27:18] Tammy Dunnett: You know, I eventually left, I got posted out from that, from Winnipeg to Edmonton. And we all think that leaving is healing. Getting away from the triggers, getting away from the toxicity is gonna heal us, but it is not. It's separation, it's time, it's distance, it's space, but it is not healing.

[00:27:35] And in that moment I realized I had a lot of work to do still cuz this is eight years later and just seeing her shook me to my core.

[00:27:43] Damaged Parents: So what would be some of that work? I mean, early on you were saying not early on in the conversation, but you said early on there was medicine, there were, the symptoms were, I wanna say mast. I'm not sure that's the right word, but it's like, let's. Let's mask this so that you can continue,

[00:28:04] and because of that, there's no healing.

[00:28:07] And then you got separation, but you didn't do the healing. So what does it take to get to that point of healing?

[00:28:14] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, so the healing for me came even later. So after that keynote oh no, actually it was before that keynote when I started it. Sorry, excuse me, for the timeline I'd had in my other job. So I left that job, went to a new one, and a couple years into that new job. I had had a conversation with someone who's in a supervisory role, but not directly supervisory, and it sounded very much like my bully in the past, and I was instantly triggered home on stress leave two weeks thinking, Oh, I need a new job.

[00:28:45] But it was in that moment that I'm like, Okay. I don't need a new job. I need a new process. I need a new system. I need a new framework. I need a new way to talk about these things. And it, I was teaching communication skills at the same time. I think fate is funny that way, right? I left a bully situation to teach communication skills and I'm like, okay.

[00:29:06] It's time to handle that when I'm teaching and I had a really good conversation with my supervisor in the new job and we set up these fabulous expectations and boundaries and ways we could work together so that she never became part of my triggering journey ever again. And it was in that moment I knew a courageous conversation was the only way to resolve interpersonal problem.

[00:29:29] Damaged Parents: So you're triggered. You take two weeks off. And then you come back and decide, I need to have this conversation, or

[00:29:36] Tammy Dunnett: Mm-hmm. . Oh

[00:29:37] yeah,

[00:29:37] Damaged Parents: instigated the conversation?

[00:29:39] Tammy Dunnett: it was me. Yeah. I knew I had to step into my fear because I already associated all of that past bullying experiences with the new one. I was now afraid of the building, the block, getting there, you know, like it was just so fresh. But she wasn't my old bully. And I had to walk through that fear that she potentially could become another one.

[00:29:58] But she hadn't come yet. We just had one conversation and I had an opportunity to create a boundary to share some information, to find a way to get to safety with her.

[00:30:08] Damaged Parents: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:09] Tammy Dunnett: And that is what we did. And from that moment on, I started to look back at all of the moments where I have been successful in less intense environ.

[00:30:17] And go, What is it I was doing then that worked? This is a reflection on, right, just like how we walked home and had all those conversations. Oh, I should have said that. It's the same thing, but now I'm looking for my strengths. And then I found a way that I was consistently showing up that was getting me success, and I started to build on that.

[00:30:34] Damaged Parents: Right. So having that courageous conversation, almost like you had to be willing to be afraid to walk, to have it And then remaining calm. How did you remain calm with all of that fear going on?

[00:30:50] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. I don't know if calm is the right word. I, I mean, my co-partner in designing that new stage in our relationship was equally on board to see if we could solve it.

[00:31:03] Damaged Parents: Hm.

[00:31:03] Tammy Dunnett: Right. So I called her before I was coming back from stress leave. I let her know what I was thinking of doing. So like setting the stage is important.

[00:31:10] Letting people know what you wanna talk to them about and giving them the container so that they can walk with you as opposed to just saying, I'd like to talk with you. And she's thinking, Oh, what is it? Have I done something else? Like, then her mind gets to wander. So, Giving her the container of where I wanted to be with her, allowed her to come in authentically and wholeheartedly cuz she also wanted the same resolution.

[00:31:32] Now, I think my bully from long ago also would've wanted the same resolution if I had known how to set that stage up. If I had known that walking through this fear and having that difficult conversation with the person would've made a difference.

[00:31:47] Damaged Parents: was there a sense of remaining curious, I mean, did you really have to remain curious about the possibility that she wanted to solve the problem?

[00:31:58] Tammy Dunnett: Yes. I had to gift her that.

[00:32:00] Damaged Parents: Okay.

[00:32:01] Tammy Dunnett: That's hard in your mind when you feel like the whole world is against you. Cuz my mind was like, Why? Why do people target me? Why am I always getting bullied? Why can't they just leave me alone? It was all externalized and your brain wants to go there. It's very natural to go there to the negative.

[00:32:17] So I had to gift her an opening and that was, she's not my old bully. This is somebody different. We had a good relationship before this moment. I have every right to believe that we can get back to that good relationship, and I had to gift myself that possibility as well.

[00:32:32] Damaged Parents: You think that as part of your journey, you needed to have this experience with the original bully in order to learn how to better communicate

[00:32:43] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, it's, I love your questions, by the way. Yes, yes, yes, and yes. I say now that it's been the best gift in my life. Would I ever want anybody to experience it? No. But I have learned deeper empathy than I'd ever known before. And I used to think I was understanding of mental health issues, but I had no clue about mental health issues and now anxiety, panic, and I lived with a agoraphobia.

[00:33:08] Like I was afraid to leave my house, to open my emails, to answer my phone like I was paralyzed. And so I understand how hard it is for people to cross that line. Like that closed box, I'm stuck in here to just peeking open a little bit and looking out and just seeing the sun shining out there and seeing the possibility that they could step into, I know how much effort goes into that.

[00:33:32] Damaged Parents: Do you think you also have more empathy towards if someone has a mental health issue going on in your life with whether workplace or not that Well, especially the workplace, probably because I think we're still working on how do I accept, especially supervisors, how do I even accept when I've got an employee that is.

[00:33:57] Having a panic attack or, or is riddled with anxiety or depression.

[00:34:02] Tammy Dunnett: Yes.

[00:34:03] Damaged Parents: how do you see employers dealing with that? You know, because I, all alls I can think of if sometimes if, if an employee has a panic attack or their anxiety or they're, you know, stress leave, all that, it's like, well now this isn't gonna get done.

[00:34:17] That's not gonna get done. Like, you know, and it's very easy to be like, it's their fault. Because they just can't handle it. I know that sounds rotten, but I think that's kind of the mindset

[00:34:28] Tammy Dunnett: Right. So we have a tendency to go to the negative. That's like our, our brain just goes there like, Oh, this, what does this mean for me? Like, oh my gosh. Right. What I flashed you when you were asking me that question was I. Worked as a nurse educator for many years in a clinical setting.

[00:34:43] And our students today, a lot of them suffer with anxiety and panic and in clinical, I had this one girl in particular, she was very forward and shared it with me, which I appreciated. And she came to clinical and she goes, I was up all night panicked, but she knew she couldn't lose any time in clinical.

[00:35:02] So as a leader, I just asked her if the hours weren't. A hundred percent end all be all. What would your decision be right now? What would you do for you right now? And she goes, I wouldn't be here. I'm not safe. I want, I needed to know what her internal thoughts were, right? So this is how we can support our employees is what would be the best for you right now, and the situation in which you're participating in so that we can still maintain the standard of care, for example, or the standard of whatever your workplace is.

[00:35:31] That's what you do as a leader.

[00:35:33] Damaged Parents: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:34] Tammy Dunnett: And because she shared with me what I would've considered to be the right choice, she's not safe. She made the right call. I supported that and I said, Yes, you need to go home and get your sleep and I'll see you tomorrow. And that allowed her to go, Oh, okay. I can be human and still be a nurse.

[00:35:50] Like it's not a either or. It's a yes. And.

[00:35:53] Damaged Parents: Mm. Yeah, I think it's, easier said than done a lot of times, especially in workplace where they're, you know, if they're short on staff or what have you, or maybe they're the only one there that is gonna get anything done, you

[00:36:08] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. You know, I, I think to a degree I agree with what you just shared, but the on the other side is when you create that culture, the rest of the employees are more willing to step in and fill the. Because they know that when it's them, they're gonna get that support

[00:36:22] when

[00:36:22] you create that

[00:36:24] culture.

[00:36:24] Damaged Parents: Yeah. So it almost

[00:36:25] creates more of a a family support. I don't wanna say family, cuz I think workplaces you do kind of get a workplace family. , but that level of support is there, which at the end of the day might create more loyalty.

[00:36:42] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. More connection.

[00:36:46] Damaged Parents: Yeah, more love everywhere. Maybe better outcomes for patients if we're talking about a healthcare setting, because people aren't stressed all the time, and I don't know about you, but as soon as I start panicking about something that I can only see, see one way, usually , I can't see the options.

[00:37:05] Tammy Dunnett: that's right. Cause your amygdala is on high alert. Like we have this little amygdala in our head. It's like the security guard at the top of the tower. His whole job is to sniff out problems and alert you.

[00:37:15] Damaged Parents: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:15] Tammy Dunnett: You've probably been in workplaces where you get fire alarms and you're like, Oh, it was a false one again.

[00:37:19] Right? It's the same thing with our amygdala. He sends off the alarm, but they can't tell if it's real or not. The human work has to tell us if it's real or not. So disarming the amygdala coming. This is why you go into pausing energy. This is why you go into pausing. You take yourself away from deescalate, look at the problem and see where you wanna go.

[00:37:39] Damaged Parents: Yeah, which sounds like it might be helpful to have someone. A confidant that you could talk to or a therapist or a coach or something like that so that you can look at it from another perspective.

[00:37:53] Tammy Dunnett: Mm-hmm. ?

[00:37:54] Yes, a hundred percent.

[00:37:56] Damaged Parents: Okay. So if someone is going through this right now, or they're in a situation that they've been in for four years,

[00:38:03] Tammy Dunnett: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:04] Damaged Parents: they're like, What do I do?

[00:38:06] And they're feeling very stuck, what will be the top three tips or tools that you would say, Try this now.

[00:38:11] Tammy Dunnett: Oh, okay. The first one is to take a step back and give yourself what we call a pause, right? So don't engage with anybody. Just take a step back and think about where you are and what you want. Which I guess leads into step two, which is set your intention. So in each one of my experiences, when I reflected back, it was my intention that led to my planning.

[00:38:33] And so, for example if you're thinking about quitting, your intention is to find safety. So like intention is actually very deep. Quitting a job is very surface level, and we have to get deeper to find out what, why that's important. But we'll just work with setting quitting a job is your intention.

[00:38:51] Then your planning becomes get your resume in order, start researching, apply, Get ready for interviews. Tap into your resources. But if your intention is to stay in this job, You're not brushing up your resume cuz that would be wasted energy.

[00:39:05] Instead, you're looking at ways to make it safe for you within.

[00:39:08] And so setting your intention is so important. And that would be step number two. Take a pause. Number one, set your intention, number two, and go deep like find out what the core value is as to why it matters to you, cuz that's what's gonna help you continue to move forward. If you don't do the work deep, you're not gonna do the work, forward.

[00:39:26] Damaged Parents: Right. And just as you were saying that, and I know we're closing out the podcast, but just as you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, it would be really easy to leave one place and find out, find yourself in the same situation again. At which point, maybe instead of thinking, Oh, I'm the victim, it, could be a sign that's a sign to one that says, Oh, maybe I need to do some work.

[00:39:48] Tammy Dunnett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna borrow your, stay curious cuz it's one of the tenants in my my program as well. That would be the third thing is just stay curious about self, about others, about the problem, about potential. Like, let potential come to you and don't close it out. Don't say no to what's possible.

[00:40:04] Damaged Parents: Mm. Oh, what a great conversation. Thank you so much, Tammy Dunnett. You can find her on LinkedIn. Tammy Dunnett. Again, that's two ends, two T's , two m's in Tammy. Gosh, we've got two's everywhere, but find her there. She's amazing. And uh, we'll see you guys.

[00:40:26] Tammy Dunnett: Okay, thanks Angela.

[00:40:27] Damaged Parents: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of relatively damaged by the imaged parents. We really enjoy talking to Tammy about how she was able to transfer to another department and heal. We especially liked when she spoke about how she now has tools to manage these challenging situations and is sharing them with us.

[00:40:47] To unite with other damaged people, connect with us on YouTube. Look for damaged. Parents will be here next week. Still relatively damaged. See you then.