S2E15: The Struggle with Depression

Ariel Tsai is the author of Narcissus, a poetry collection exploring, among other things, her sense of self and her lifelong struggle with mental illness. In raw, forthright, and unapologetic language which mixes the highbrow with the low and the classical with the modern, Ariel reveals the ugliest parts of herself and revels in the vulnerability in an attempt to lend strength to others who wish to do the same. Outside of writing, Ariel loves translation theory, sitting on rocks to bask in the sun like a lizard, and eating inadvisable amounts of Honey Nut Cheerios.

Social media and contact information: IG/TikTok: @arielwritesabit

Podcast Transcript:

[00:00:00] Damaged Parents: Welcome back to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents where artistic creative, smart people come to learn. Maybe just, maybe we're all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume. 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.

Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about. In my ongoing investigation of the damaged self, I want to better understand how others view their own challenges.

Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience? My hero is the damaged person, the one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side, whole.

Those who stare directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose. These are the people who inspire me to be more fully me. Not in spite of my trials, but because of them. Let's hear from another hero.

Today's topic could include sensitive material, which may not be appropriate for children. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them.

Today, we're going to talk with Ariel Tsai. She has many roles in her life, daughter, friend, writer, and more. We'll talk about how she struggled with depression, anxiety, ADHD. And how she found health and healing. Let's talk

Welcome back to Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents today, we have Ariel Tsai. I think I said that, right? She's nodding her head. She's the author of Narcissus which is a poetry collection exploring among other things, her sense of self and her lifelong struggle with mental illness. Before we get into that though, I've got to ask her a question, what is translation theory?

[00:02:25] Ariel Tsai: Very basically like whenever there's a translation made of any kind of radio really, but like, literature, especially, it can be a very complicated process because like people always say like, things get lost in translation, you know, and it is an inevitable part of translation. That's something, some nuance, some like you know, sense of the form or the style could be lost in translation, and translators have to make choices. So translation theory is about that, like the kind of choices that they make and the you know, like the implications of those choices. Like one of the things that I've always loved about translation, is like sort of the exercise of translating it back and seeing you know, like what these sorts of like iterations. So I've done it with like, one of Shakespeare's like monologues or something. I think it's from Henry the fourth. And it's like the, the really famous one, like, though we a band of brothers or like, are gonna like fight on this hill and die on it or something, but like, it'll be a for England. And it's real patriotic or whatever.

So it's famous. But yeah, like I found a Chinese translation of it. I compared it to the original and a lot of ways. And then I translated the Chinese back into English. And of course it's like you know, when you translate verse, which is what Shakespeare is writing in you have to make choices about like, even just the form, like are you going to try to write in, iambic pentameter which like in a language like Chinese, like it's a monosyllabic language, so that would reduce all of your lines to like, just like what, 10 characters and then You know, has stress in certain places where, you know, a Chinese speaker would not, I'm using English and Chinese because like, you know, I'm fluent in both English and Mandarin Chinese. And I like studied you know, translation theory among other things while I was, studying abroad and Nanjing, China. So yeah, shout out to NJU um, for making me think many thoughts. Like I just yeah, it's like, there's a reason why even something like, the Odyssey or the ILEAD or whatever, there's like a million translations out there because there's always something else that could be done with the text.

And you always see, especially with. Very commonly translated things like these, like Safa, for example, people will talk about how, you know some of her early sort of like semi earlier translator is sort of like, heterosexualized, her, because it's like , when an original text becomes a translated text, the translator is a medium in between. And like, you know, what comes out on the other side is no longer the original. it is. an original work on its own in some ways, because of like the choices that have been made while it's in this medium.

And I Just think that's fascinating.

[00:05:37] Damaged Parents: It is. And just, even as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about communication between people and, and how, if it happens in text, you know, you just have proof now, right? Translation is in some ways, from my understanding of how you're explaining it it's kind of like, this is what happens normally, just even like between you and me right now, I'm using the words I'm using.

I think I'm communicating clearly. And based on your answers, I think you understand what I said, but something happens in between probably too right?

[00:06:12] Ariel Tsai: of course. Yeah. Like, I was a bit of a like linguistics nerd in college as well. But something that we talk about, especially in socio-linguistics is that we're not usually like being grammatically correct or anything, but we can still be understood together, through just sort of this, would I explain this? Like, we have a kind of like agreement I would say, or something like that, like that this conversation is a medium within which we are working together. But you know, in some points in life, like you see people like, sort of like talking at each other or like, you know, things getting lost in translation between people.

And it's because like, you know, there is not necessarily a translator, although sometimes there is it's that, you know, everyone brings their own lens into a conversation or into a book or into a movie, or like any type of media. You know, like things can get interpreted even further than like the original speaker, the original author creator intended, or like things could be missed, you know, like it's just dependent on the lens that each person brings into the conversation or like to the appreciation with something.

[00:07:27] Damaged Parents: That's really beautiful. How you explain that now I do want to get into your struggle and hear your story. And I believe it's about lifelong anxiety and ADHD. And what is that like? What has that been like for you?

[00:07:41] Ariel Tsai: Uh, as a kid, like, I was very anxious, but you know, I guess growing up when I did like, you know, early two thousands, a type of thing, especially with like immigrant parents, my parents are both, immigrants from Taiwan. And like, they, they moved here to get like their masters at NYU and like, you know, worked here started having us kids. So I was born in like Queens and I was like, afraid. I was like such a scaredy cat, but I also had sort of a conception of death before really anyone else did, I didn't realize this until later, but I had this fear of like dying and I like understood what dying meant and like, you know, sort of looking back and like maybe psychoanalyzing myself.

It's like, there are a number of reasons why this could have happened. But it's like, yeah, like I was a huge scaredy cat and very socially anxious, especially like when I got into school. But a lot of the times, I mean, that anxiety would either manifest as like me, you know, always being alone or me like being very angry.

Like I had a lot of anger issues as a child. you know, like hitting people and stuff. Like actually one of the stories I tell as a poem in my book is about me in kindergarten beating the crap out of another kid for being racist to me, you know, like that was mostly that, but I was like such a high performer in school all through grade school that like, I was not diagnosed with ADHD until I was like 16, I think. And like, you

know, it's not that it didn't affect my life. It's just that like, I was like not to blow my own horn or whatever, but like, I was like smart enough that like, school was never hard for me, even if I did have like, you know, I have like combination type ADHD. But I, I do, especially in school, like tend to more towards like the inattentiveness type, but like it's. Yeah. Like, you know, I had this like crippling sort of fear and also like constant anger that I was like trying to work with. I had this like, untreated ADHD that was like, you know like I don't know if anyone would've pegged me as, like, I feel like I'm like a stereotype of like the kind of kid that doesn't get diagnosed because like, I don't fit the stereotype of an ADHD kid, you know, because like I do well in school and like, I, whatever. But like, I was like in like younger grades, like sometimes I would get bored and you know, like shout out answers over other people or like, you know, like the reading level stuff that they did was always too boring for me.

So then I would start like doodling or like wandering around or something. So some of the teachers just gave me high level stuff and then I'm like, oh, she's like gifted. But you know, nobody really was like, oh, maybe this kid like has attention problems.

[00:10:50] Damaged Parents: I'm not sure which one would be better, right. Or if it's just a different journey.

[00:10:55] Ariel Tsai: Yeah. It's like, I clearly found ways to cope all through grade school. Like, well, enough. You know, like I graduated, like my graduating class, wasn't like super large. It's only like five to 600 people, but I was like top 20 in my class. And like, without really ever trying that much, I, still don't really know how to study. It's like school, school has like never been the problem for me, which is, yeah. Like one of the reasons why it took So long for me to be diagnosed with ADHD. And then I sort of look back on my childhood and stuff. It's like, oh, things make a lot more sense.

[00:11:35] Damaged Parents: So your wherever, your challenges then if, if it wasn't really at school, it sounds like it was maybe a bit more with the anxiety, but how did it show up for you then?

[00:11:45] Ariel Tsai: So when I was there sort of like a division, definitely. Like from before I was about 12 or 13, it manifested in certain ways up until like I went to college and then started like, you know, doing therapy. And then?

also when I was about 12 or 13, that's like when like I had the onset of like really severe clinical depression. So I guess like that being thrown into the mix really changed things. Yeah. Sorry, what was the question again?

[00:12:13] Damaged Parents: That's okay. I think you're trying to answer it. But now I have a new question. So we'll just go with the new question. what

was that depression like having the anxiety. And of course you didn't even know that you had ADHD until that point in time. So what was your. Experience with it.

[00:12:31] Ariel Tsai: I mean At first, it. was just like, I'm like in middle school at that point. And like, I have so much social anxiety about many things. But also about like the sort of things that my parents are I mean, I had classic Asian sort of like tire parents, you know, that like push you into doing things to like, I don't even know be a cut above the rest.

So it was like, I was doing like music and like sports and dance, like whatever. And I didn't like all of them, but it was like when I was 12 or 13, but like, I really sort of like pushing back and that I really started feeling like a lot more like sort of lost and confused. Because I had all these feelings, but they had no root for me. And it's like middle school problems or like middle school problems. Like, they feel like they're big at the time, I guess. But it's like, they, I don't want to say that they didn't merit the kind of reaction that I have, but I saw the people around me, react to certain things in certain ways. And I was like, why am I just weaker than them? You know? It's like, I am smarter than them maybe, but I think so much. And like, I don't know, like, I actually don't remember a lot about those years. Cause it was like, oh, it's almost like I like went through middle school in like a weird Fugue state or something. which My therapist you know, points to potential like sort of childhood trauma there. Because like, it's also like, sort of around that time when I started dissociating at times, like, do you know what that means?

[00:14:14] Damaged Parents: Yeah, where you separate yourself from what's happening, right.

[00:14:18] Ariel Tsai: Kind of, yeah, but it wasn't on purpose. Like, it can be like a disorder, but sometimes it's just like a symptom of something else. So like, for me, it was probably a symptom of the depression where it was like, I would feel very distant from whatever was going on in my body was like, sort of on autopilot, but I was just like, I don't know. I don't even have words for it. Like I just felt beyond myself and also smaller than myself. And like, I was just watching myself go through life at times. And then I like would have periods where just like, , I would not remember like what I'd done, what I'd eaten, like maybe because like when you're in grade school, especially in American grade school, it's like, everything is kind of the same all the time. Like for public school anyway, like your days are very there's very little like actual change. So maybe that's why I remember so little of it, but the dissociation and stuff, definitely had to do with it but that like when I was 12 or 13 and I was like, starting to, like, I don't know, like have all these weird thoughts and like, whatnot.

Like I, that's, when I started writing, like I had a lot of composition notebooks and stuff and I would just like write all these things like my anger issues as a child sort of turned inwards at that point in my life.

[00:15:35] Damaged Parents: So do you mean you would talk like that was the way you talked to yourself was very angry, like you should, or, how dare you or, you know what I'm saying? Like that negative self-talk.

[00:15:46] Ariel Tsai: A lot of self-loathing a lot of negative self-talk.

And I didn't know anything about mental illness in general. I just thought it was like, you know, that's for crazy people. Because it's like, that's the culture that my parents were raised in that, like that, unfortunately a mindset that a lot of people still have like that. Mental illness is for crazy people. And so it's like, I was like, I'm not crazy. I'm like a functional person. And I like don't hurt anyone. And I, whatever, it's like, I have all these thoughts, like sometimes about like killing myself or like, like hurting myself, but you know, like no one needs to know about them cause I don't do anything about it.

So I just, wrote it out. It was like how I would sort my thoughts out by writing.

[00:16:32] Damaged Parents: And did it help as you were, as a teenager, did it now were you journaling or were you actually writing poetry at that point?

[00:16:38] Ariel Tsai: I was mostly just like sort of journaling slash ranting in those things. I did experiment with like trying to write stories and stuff they're really bad. And it's like an incredibly embarrassing, But like, there's some like quote-unquote poetry, but like, I say quote unquote, because it's like the only poetry I'd ever really had exposure to was through public school.

Right. And like the poetry that they make you read, it's mostly very structured and the poetry they'll, they make you write is like fucking acrostic poems. And you know, like mother, and then you put one word for like, how much you like, love your mom in all of those letters. You know, and so it's like, I didn't realize that poetry didn't have to be stuffy, I guess or that it didn't have to be like a certain way. It didn't have to sound a certain way. Cause I hadn't just like read enough poetry. I didn't have enough experience with it. So my poetry back then is even more embarrassing than my attempts at stories.

[00:17:43] Damaged Parents: You think it's embarrassing because of what you were expressing or because of

[00:17:48] Ariel Tsai: No,

because they're bad. Like it's like, oh fuck. That's so cringe. Like just looking back because I am obviously a much better writer now, much more well-read and it's like looking at these things, it's like, mostly it's like, I can at least sympathize with that kid. Cause that's that kid is still within me. You know? It's like maybe like I have more perspective on those things that they're writing about, but , mostly it's like, oh God, this writing like,

[00:18:20] Damaged Parents: Well, especially now, since you've done a lot of studying and you have good idea of translation theory and all of those other things that you've been working on for so long.

[00:18:30] Ariel Tsai: I mean, like I didn't get a bachelor's in like English, literature and criticism for nothing.

[00:18:37] Damaged Parents: Do you think, well, I don't know how I want to ask this question by having that degree in English, you said English, literature and criticism right?

[00:18:47] Ariel Tsai: Yeah, but I was also a double major. So my other major was language and literature. And that's why I spent like, I mean, it's also because I was like part of this program, the Chinese language flagship program which is run by like the department of state or the department of defense or something like that. And they have chapters in all different schools and they have all these different languages that you can do in Chinese is one of them and Hunter College, where I went have a branch of Chinese flagship. And they required that you studied intensively like at Hunter College for like two years or like two semesters of something like worth of like stuff.

And then you like do a, summer long language intensive. I did mine at Princeton in I'm sorry. I didn't mind in Beijing at Princeton in Beijing, which is like this program run by Princeton in Beijing Beijing Chiffon, Dasha, which is Beijing Normal University. One of China's top like teaching schools. And then your capstone year of the program, which for me ran from the end of my junior year to the beginning of my senior year of college, like, is a year long study abroad in either Beijing Nanjing, usually either Beijing and Nanjing, and then you can also choose to Taiwan. And then the You know, the first semester is like you're in classes at, you know, Beijing University or like Nanjing University, which is where I was. And then the second semester you intern out of Chinese company. So I interned for sound so Ealing press, which is like one of the, most foremost publishers of translated literature in China.

[00:20:28] Damaged Parents: Oh, wow. But having that, that background.

[00:20:32] Ariel Tsai: Yeah.

[00:20:33] Damaged Parents: Right. and, now that you're looking back having that background in the language and then criticizing that language, I'm wondering in my mind, I'm thinking it might if I look back, I wouldn't see the beauty. I would only see the mistakes or what I think are mistakes now.

What are your thoughts on that?

[00:20:51] Ariel Tsai: I mean, when I say, when we say criticism in literature, it doesn't just mean being critical, it means critically reading something and analyzing it and making interpretations or analysis of it, like it means, yeah, it, it means like reading things with a critical eye. Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not necessarily meant in a like pejorative sense, I guess I should say so looking back at some of my old writing it starts being a little less cringe as I like read more and like, you know become better practice. Like, you know, I used to write like all the damn time in these, like random ass notebooks that I had. But like, You know, it also got better with feedback.

Like in junior year of high school, I took like a creative writing class and yeah, I think that, that, sort of workshop style thing where you like go back and forth on a piece, that's something that really helped me. And it's also something that really emphasized for me the revisions and editing process, which like, I don't know.

I don't, there was a quote, I think that's usually attributed to Ernest Hemingway that?

says that like 90% of writing is revision. So it's like, it's not just like you word vomit and then you're done. No, like you have to go back and like rework reiterate, like rewrite sometimes. And I found that I'm one of those nerds that enjoys revisions. I know that there are people who don't, but I think the people that are great writers are great revisers, I don't think anyone who writes seriously, actually just word vomits and then never touches it again. I don't understand people like that and they frightened me, but I know that they exist.

[00:22:41] Damaged Parents: Has that helped with dealing with your anxiety and depression you know, and how has the ADHD impacted all of that?

[00:22:50] Ariel Tsai: So like I don't write everyday. Now I could feasibly have time, but I don't have the discipline. Like right now, it's like, I am on a very low dose of Adderall. But like, sort of when I went into therapy at first, like, sort of the, I should explain this. Okay. So at first the like focus of my therapy was always the more like, like critical things, like things that were like, oh, this is definitely negatively impacting my life right now.

So as a teenager, I had like semi-regular panic attacks. And like, realized at that point because I also had access to the internet that I had been having panic attacks, even like, as a kid. But I had never known what they were. I just thought I was maybe dying. I don't know. Cause if you've ever had a panic or anxiety attack, and you don't know what's going on, it feels kind of like you're dying. But yeah, as a teenager, I knew what they were. And then I started trying to see like trying to see a therapist in high school, but was not very successful because I was a minor and dependent on my parents and they either I don't want to say that they like I dunno, don't all our parents going to fuck us up, but like they did like sort of fuck me over a little bit by like, with their sort of mentalities about mental illness and like, that's not their fault.

Like that's what they were raised with that's in society, but there were sort of like inculcated with, so, know, they didn't believe that

I had mental illness, even though yet as a teenager, I had access to the internet and therefore like had been looking up like what is going on, you know? And I was like, I think I have anxiety and depression. I think I should see a therapist. And neither of them really believed that anything was wrong with me. They thought that I was just lazy. Like if I was like staying in bed a lot and like, didn't really eat. And I though it was just like being like a teenage rebel or something. I don't know.

[00:24:57] Damaged Parents: No, that makes a lot of sense to me anyway. Right. And you know, so I'm just thinking from a generational standpoint, you know, it'll be interesting to, it would be if I went, if I were to age backwards, right or age long or where I was able to stay alive for a long enough time to see what the next generations don't know that they learned.

[00:25:20] Ariel Tsai: Yeah,

[00:25:22] Damaged Parents: that we, all learned. Cause we're all learning and growing together.

[00:25:24] Ariel Tsai: of course.

[00:25:26] Damaged Parents: But I think like sometimes that things, our parents didn't know that we know well maybe we're doing a little better at, and then hopefully they'll do better at something else, but

I also don't think it could be perfect because then what would we, you know, we've got to have teenage angst.

I think it's like a requirement to become an adult.

[00:25:45] Ariel Tsai: Yeah. Yeah. It's just the, my teenage angst also involves like, sort of existential crises about like the meaning of life, about the nature of God and religion about like society in general about like my fucking place in the universe, or like what I was going to do with my life or whether or not anything I ever did with my life would be meaningful if like I was just screaming into the void and then perishing.

And then eventually we'd all be swallowed by the sun. Well, although we'd probably be swallowed by the sea first, I don't know. Yeah. And like, at that point I had been self-harming, like it probably started when I was around 13 or 14. But like starting from when I was about 10 years old, like I was a competitive swimmer, So I learned how to hide my scars really well. Yeah, so my parents, I think part of why they didn't believe anything was wrong with me was, you know, like they're sort of cultural sensibilities where like, they don't want to believe that their daughter is like crazy or damaged or whatever. But part of it was also that, like, they didn't see the full picture. You know, because I didn't show it to them. I was not. I don't know if it's that I wasn't brave enough to show them the extent of things or if it's like that. I thought it was something that I could just deal with by myself and that I was dealing with by like doing, you know, like the writing and the self-harm and all that. But I dunno, there was some symptoms, there were still like really, really visible, like, you know, it wasn't until I had a panic attack in front of each of my parents separately that they realized that, oh, something's actually really wrong here. And they let me get a therapist. But my first therapist was, actually probably one of the worst therapists ever.

I don't know. But he's also the guy that diagnosed with ADHD. So.

[00:27:49] Damaged Parents: So he got that right.

[00:27:51] Ariel Tsai: he, I want to say, okay, like a lot of people who like have bad experiences with therapy, because it is hard to, you know, find someone that you have enough rapport with to like, trust and like talk to about like your most vulnerable shit. But he got going on, you know? But, mine asked, so during the first session, he let my dad sit in the room and he asked if like, my dad wanted to continue sitting in on the sessions. And my dad said yes. And then he asked me if I was okay with it.

[00:28:24] Damaged Parents: It's backwards.

[00:28:25] Ariel Tsai: yeah. And it's like, I was 16, then I was a minor, but it was like, I didn't feel like I could say anything other than yes.

So, you know, what I talked about with that therapist was just overshadowed, always one of my, like dad, like just watching. And so there'd be like half an hour at the end of the session where he'd sort of sending my dad out the room and be like, is there anything that you feel that you couldn't talk about with him in the room, but I didn't feel that I could trust him to not tell my dad, you know, so

[00:28:53] Damaged Parents: which is so important during those formative years that you have another adult

that you can kind of talk to about your parents, right? I'm a mother, I have children and it's, hard, but yet I think it's important to give them that room because I can't expect them to always be happy with me,

[00:29:14] Ariel Tsai: Yes,

[00:29:15] Damaged Parents: quite frankly.

[00:29:17] Ariel Tsai: But like, you know especially when it comes to with therapist, Like, I don't know what the laws are on that, but that seems just wildly unethical, like to one infantilize me like that and invite my dad to stay in the room with me during my therapy sessions. And like, I don't know, like that just seems like it is not above board.

You know what I'm saying?

[00:29:41] Damaged Parents: Yeah. Well, and I think too, I, just from my perspective, I'm thinking how many parents do, I know that want to be in the room and they feel insecure if they're not there, or they're worried that, you know, and yet it's still is theirs it's the child's session

[00:29:57] Ariel Tsai: Yeah. It's like some, some parents really really do think of their children as extensions of themselves and not as people with their own, like. You know, like that do things of their own volition and have their own free will and have rights that should be respected. Um, And clearly my dad was one of those people.

[00:30:19] Damaged Parents: And that's okay, because now you get to work out that, I mean, it's the reality, is, that is what happened did now we get to take steps hopefully. So that in the future, like I think the UN has a, a child's right document. I don't remember what it's called. I don't believe the United States has signed it.

I know Switzerland has, but that they are people and they have rights. And I just thought that I only learned that in the last. Probably a month or so. And I just thought that was really beautiful, but had I learned that when my kids were younger, I'm not sure how I would have felt about it.

I would have. I think I would have seen, oh yes, this makes sense. But I don't know that I would have seen them as their own people, their own person. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

[00:31:06] Ariel Tsai: yeah. yeah. I do get that because it's like, you know, for moms, especially like they come out of you, you know, like it does seem like they're part of you. And because like, you know, they are the genetic makeup of like, you know of yourself maybe, or like you just spend so much time with them caring for them and whatnot, and they are dependent on you. So it becomes really hard to see them as their own people, but it's like, I don't know. It's like children are, of course human beings. They are their own people. And with something like, you know, therapy like, you know, medical stuff, like, I don't know. Maybe it's difficult to get a child's informed consent on things. But the parent cannot always be a part of that because like, I don't know, it's like there are situations in which like, parents are a lot more malicious than just like, you know, insecure or whatever. It's like, they might be actively abusive. And like, you know, maybe my dad was probably not actually abusive to me.

I have a lot of like very complicated memories and trauma with them, so I don't have a relationship with them anymore. But, you know, like if he had been someone who I remember being really abusive to me and he sat in on my therapy sessions, I probably would never have been able to trust with another therapist. You know, like, I don't know.

[00:32:34] Damaged Parents: Yeah, no. And I think that's important to talk about too, because, the, those are things I think sometimes unless you experienced it, you don't like, now that you've explained that on this podcast, maybe someone else will, will be able to think about it and from a new perspective, right. Because that was, that was your experience, you know, and I think that's, I mean, super vulnerable and I'm grateful that you're willing to share that, that from the, you know, from that place of vulnerability,

[00:33:05] Ariel Tsai: yeah. I mean, I've been trying to get better about being vulnerable because.

I think, you know, it's not being vulnerable for so long that you know, cause me to just suffer in silence for such a long time before I actually decided to seek help, from the people around me and from you know, professionals. But I also think that like more vulnerability from ourselves, like encourages the people we love, especially the people we are vulnerable with to be vulnerable with us. And that makes for better communication, you know, and makes it such that whatever sort of like medium there is between the two of you.

It can at least be as clear as possible and you can understand each other better and work from there.

[00:33:49] Damaged Parents: With what you're saying right there. Just real quick, there's less chance of mistakes or of changing the translation or of it getting lost in that translation when you're communicating as vulnerably and honest as possible.

[00:34:02] Ariel Tsai: And I think it is really important for parents to be vulnerable to their children as well. Like I know some parents have this sort of theory that they need to be like superhuman for their kids or whatever, but it's. You know, like to a certain extent, like you should be vulnerable with your children so that your children trust you enough to be vulnerable with you. You know what I mean? Like, but then again, like don't know. I, I do have like other trauma revolving around my mom being like way too vulnerable with me on like leaning on me, and a point of my life. So Yeah. that's just a whole other bag of

bullshit.

[00:34:41] Damaged Parents: Yeah. Well, I think there is a balance too. I don't think children are the people in our lives that we need to go to to lean on them, to help us make decisions and things like that. I mean, even if we're at a scary situation, that's not the person I'm going to go to, to reason it out

[00:35:00] Ariel Tsai: Yes,

[00:35:00] Damaged Parents: because they're just not capable at that point in time. And it puts it's it's I believe another trauma to, even think that they could possibly have any idea about some of these adult things we're supposed to be their support. You know, it's like going to a therapist and you end up counseling the therapist. Well, that's a problem.

[00:35:24] Ariel Tsai: Yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying to do that. Absolutely not. But when to say vulnerable I mean, it, in the sense of being honest, you

know, like, especially like too many parents, like don't want to say they don't know something, they aren't sure. Or that they're scared about something. Especially when it comes to their kids. And I think part of that is like the wanting to protect them. But part of that is that like, some people are just very bad at being vulnerable with themselves as well. So it's like, I don't think my parents would have ever told me like that they don't want me to see a therapist because they don't want me to like an insane person. I think like the chance that they had actually sort of like verbalize that thought to themselves are kind of low.

[00:36:07] Damaged Parents: I see what you're saying. That makes a lot of sense, and I'm really glad that you clarified exactly what we're talking about. That we were able to talk about what it meant to be vulnerable

[00:36:16] Ariel Tsai: Yeah.

[00:36:17] Damaged Parents: and from different perspectives. Like, and that's, again, part of that communication of

both knowing that we may not get it right the first time through, and that's the revision, right?

[00:36:28] Ariel Tsai: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:36:30] Damaged Parents: I love this conversation. It's so fun.

[00:36:34] Ariel Tsai: I'm glad.

[00:36:35] Damaged Parents: So, but one of the things you also said is that you are, you know, I think one of the questions that I asked before the interview is what tools did you find most helpful in finding your balance? And, you said therapy and medication, but I think somewhere along the way, you also voiced, I'm still working on that.

[00:36:55] Ariel Tsai: Of course. Yeah. Like, my anxiety, ADHD and depression have not gone away. I think the longest remission I've ever had from depression, like I've had depression for little over 10 years now and So the longest remission I've ever had was about two months. And other than that.

it's like specifically, it's what you like the DSM call like PDD persistent depressive disorder, where it's like, for the most part, it is like low level depression that does interfere with like your day-to-day functioning, and your like mood and self image and whatnot. But it's like, it is extremely chronic, like, you know especially if it appears in children, like, I don't know, at 12 or 13, like, I think I'm considered at that level as like still a child. So it's like, One of the things about PDD is that it can feel like it's just part of your personality.

Like maybe you were just a depressive person and like, that's why things are the way that they are. So it's like kind of hard to diagnose. Especially like for me, like it came kind of around like a, you know, a point in my life where like I was entering puberty and stuff. So, just like so many changes on top of each other.

And like, there's too many variables you can't tell like which one is doing the thing. But like another thing with PDD is that you can have episodes of major depression, which is like, what most people think of when you think of depression. Right? It's like, all the same symptoms, but like magnified, like it's like the. Trouble sleeping or sleeping too much trouble eating or eating too much sadness, despair like, all those fun things for a period of two weeks or more. And it's like, it is a genuine inhibitor to like your functioning in day to day life with PDD, you can have periods of double depression, which is exactly as fun as it sounds. So it's like bonus depression on top of your normal everyday depression.

[00:39:05] Damaged Parents: So with PDD, you're already at a lower level of consistency. And then with the major depression on top of that. it's quite literally that it's just also on top of that,

[00:39:17] Ariel Tsai: yeah. It's like, you have a bag of shit. You set it on fire. Like, you know, like you don't. It's just making everything worse. but It's like, I wasn't just dealing with those things. Right. I was also dealing with like, you know anxiety and like as a teenager, like it became my panic attacks became increasingly frequent.

Like, I remember cause I used to swim competitively. Right and part of that was like swimming varsity for high school and swimming for college. And actually a lot of things in my life that I am into, like, I also played piano for 10 years, but I had too many panic attacks. Like I had one onstage during a concert once I've had ones after performances or like, you know Yeah, like music tests and stuff like that.

I've had ones during lessons, after lessons, before lessons. So it's like piano is like a little bit ruined for me now. And swimming was the same way. Like I, I had them before practices. I said, I got them during practices sometimes and had to get out of the pool because I was hyperventilating so much. And I like couldn't see anymore. I had them during meets I had them before and after meets there would come points in the.

season where I would just have panic attacks every single day. And sometimes more than once a day. It was like so common for me as a teenager, especially that like, to just like have at least one panic attack a week. And yet, like, I was still like a good student and I was still like involved in like sports and clubs and like music and whatever. So it's like, you know who would want to think that there's anything wrong with that, that kid,

[00:41:03] Damaged Parents: Yeah, and, and yet you were totally struggling. We are getting close to the end and we spoke earlier about you reading one of your poems. Are you still up for sharing that with us?

[00:41:15] Ariel Tsai: Yeah. Sure. So my book is about among other things, like, as we said, my struggle with like mental illness and also like my sense of self, like, because you know, obviously mental illness is not the only thing that defines me. So it's also about these sort of intersections of other things, which make up my identity. And it's also about how mental illness being such a part of my formative experience has affected my sense of self. Like there are still things that I can't tell, like, is this me? Or is this the depression or anxiety or whatever, is this my personality?

Or is it like, you know, is it like just the, the bad hormones in my brain or something? But like, you know, I have, while I am still struggling with all of this, like, I am definitely in a better place than I was as a teenager, as a kid. Because I've had years of work, put in, you know, like with therapists, with psychiatrists, like with myself, you know, and trying to get on that journey towards like, like, I don't know if it's realistic to like, to be a happy mental illness free person. But at least to like, love myself and be content with my life and this book, the story arc of it is that journey, you know, and obviously I'm not completely there yet. But It's like something I'm still working towards and like, it's something that the book gravitates towards as well. So this is like a poem from, kind of the end of my book. It is not the very last poem but one of the last and it's called quota. So I'll just read it.

Forget talking about sex. I wish someone had sat me down when I was younger to tell my unformed self, you do not have to be anything. Love is not transactional conditional contractual. Your voice is worth hearing and you do not have to be anything. You do not have to be good. Your voice is worth hearing. You do not have to be good. You are worth loving. Instead, I had to learn things the hard way. Knees scraped to scar tissues from all the times. I've fallen down, down, down into the arms of someone who loved me to bruises, to pieces, to death. If someone wants you, but only if you change, then they don't want you. They want their idea of you, which is smaller than you. You're not cutting yourself down to size. Do not contort yourself to fit within the boundaries as their expectations. Lest you one day, open your eyes to find you're unable to stand up straight again. And it's hard. So. To put yourself back together again, after you built up your walls and had a great fall or was it the other way around, but it's okay. It's hard, but it's okay. You live and you learn and you fall and you bleed and cry and scream and pray for something to change. And it will, it will change as the way of things just as sakura bloom and wilt and death and birth. Even if things don't go your way, they will change. You will change. You do not have to be anything. They will change. Maybe you can find it in yourself to love them still. Or maybe you can't and it's okay. It's all. Okay. You do not have to be anything and neither do they look after yourself. You do not have to be good, but you should still look after yourself because someone should, you're worth loving. Even if you're not loved, you're still worth it. You've not have to be. You're still worth it. Listen, darlin, if you only have so much love to give, make sure that at the end of the day, some of you still belongs to yourself.

[00:45:05] Damaged Parents: That's so beautiful and so relatable.

[00:45:09] Ariel Tsai: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's like, my poetry really has come a long way from that crap. It was writing in my composition notebooks because it's like, you know, a lot of people think of poetry as being inaccessible as being staffy But no, like I wrote this in fairly simple words and like, I want to say that it's like a message that like can very easily be understood.

You know? It's like, it doesn't matter who you are, how you are, what you're doing. You are worth loving your worth. Like, like you, you are worth being happy. Like you are worth loving, like for yourself to love, your worth, like the work it takes to love yourself. And it's like the way that the poem is structured is such that it's like, it starts out, like, as me saying, I wish someone had told me this, but then the rest of the poem is in second person as if it's like, yes.

I wish this is what someone had told me, but it's also what I'm telling you, the reader, or here, the listener.

[00:46:12] Damaged Parents: I think it's perfect. So I'm grateful. I can't wait to get your book so ebook in December and then in January, it's a paperback.

[00:46:21] Ariel Tsai: Yes. And then later in 2022, we'll get a hardcover edition as well, because I am a sucker for a good looking hardcover.

[00:46:33] Damaged Parents: Well, I love it. I'm so glad I got to have you on the show, Ariel. Thank you so much.

[00:46:38] Ariel Tsai: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:46:40] Damaged Parents: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. We've really enjoyed talking to Ariel about how she copes with anxiety, depression, and ADHD. We especially liked when she spoke about. Translation theory. And we talked about how that impacts communication as well. To unite with other damaged people connect with us on facebook look for damaged parents We'll be here next week still relatively damaged see you then