Episode 4: I Married a Narcissist
Marie Fraser
Bio: Marie was married to a narcissist for 27 years. The split was very acrimonious and the divorce took 7 years to finalise. She is the mother of two sons, one of which is disabled and special needs and she has been advocating for his rights since he was diagnosed with cerebral palsy at the age of 12 months. She is a clinical hypnotherapist, certified life coach and the creator of Bounce Back After Break-Up a program for women who want to bring the fun, freedom and joy back into their lives, and ditch the limiting beliefs associated with a relationship break-up and/or narcissistic abuse.
Connect with Marie:
www.instagram.com/mariefraser__
A gift of deep relaxation from Marie Fraser https://bit.ly/DeepRelaxing
Podcast transcript below:
Damaged Parents: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents where our cracked bent, shattered and hurting people come to learn. Maybe just, maybe we're all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.
Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than. Like we aren't good enough. Like we aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about in my ongoing investigation of the damage self. I want to better understand how others view their own challenges.
Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience? My hero is the damaged person. The one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side, whole those who stare directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose.
These are the people who inspire me to be more fully me, not in spite of my trials, but because of them. Let's hear from another hero today, we are going to talk with Marie Frazier from across the pond in the UK. She has many roles in her life, mother, daughter, sister, hypnotherapist, life, coach, and creator.
We'll talk about how she escaped the clutches of a narcissistic husband. What walking on eggshells is like in a world where black. Is white and vice versa. We'll also learn what prompted her to find more fun in her life and how she cherishes her sons. Let's talk well.
Hello, Marie, and welcome to Relatively Damage.
Thanks for being here today.
Marie Fraser: [00:02:24] And thanks for inviting Angela. I'm delighted to be here.
Damaged Parents: [00:02:27] Yeah. I'd love the English accent. I have to tell you of course, but don't most Americans, right?
Marie Fraser: [00:02:32] I think so. Yeah.
Damaged Parents: [00:02:35] So, we were both surprised today because there was cancellation you were able to get in right away.
And so what was that like and thinking, I mean, we're going to be talking about a pretty big struggle. It seems like to me, at least that's the purpose of the podcast. So what was it like preparing for that so quickly?
Marie Fraser: [00:02:53] I felt a bit off on the back foot, but it wasn't too big a deal because you know, my journey started a long time ago.
So I've been a, for want of a better phrase in recovery for a very long time. But it's something that I feel very strongly about to be able to share with other people that are experiencing that kind of abuse or lifestyle.
Damaged Parents: [00:03:22] Right now you, what I was reading about is that you spent a very long time, 20 some odd years.
I want to say it was, in an abusive marriage or a narcissistic marriage, right?
Marie Fraser: [00:03:34] That's correct. Yeah. It wasn't like that all the time. Certainly not in the beginning. But, narcissists very clever in a way they're very charming, very manipulative and it's, you know, something will happen.
Well , it's not necessarily a red flag. It's something that you think, well, that's a bit strange, but you let it go and, or that's a bit annoying. You'll let it go. I mean, there'd be instances where, I'd be asked, you know, shall we have a Curry tonight? And I'd say, actually, no, I'd prefer something else, whatever.
And it would be, Oh, I really. Um, well, I'd really like a turn then I say yes. Okay, fine. But then the next time it would go down the routes of asking me several times. You don't want to Curry. This is just an example. No, I actually don't. I don't want to any Italian or what have you, are you sure you don't want to Curry?
No, no, I don't want to carry it. And it was almost like a toddler asking you. I'm asking you so that you would actually change your mind and in the end it became so irritated. You'd just say, okay, fine. A current, but let's just have a current, but that's how it sort of starts. He seems really innocuous.
Okay. But it's almost like you're being sort of project. In the shoulder and it becomes a bit irritating. So you then start to go along with whatever, just for the peace and quiet.
Damaged Parents: [00:05:19] Right? So it's like a little nag, a constant nag that becomes a larger wound, but you don't maybe even realize you've got the wound.
Marie Fraser: [00:05:35] Exactly. It's all the little things that's, that's a very innocuous example I was giving you, but then it would lead on to over the years, more serious examples in my opinion. So for example, when I had my first child, the day I brought him home from hospital, his father said, well, actually, I'm going to go off to South Africa to watch the rugby in two weeks time.
And there was absolutely no thought as a new mother that I would need support and help. I had no, night we lived in London, so we had no family around us and I'm not, I just sat there and thought, how does he think this is? Okay.
Damaged Parents: [00:06:23] That must have felt really horrible.
Marie Fraser: [00:06:25] Well, you feel quite abandoned and very alone and the sorts of not the worry, you're in this new position.
You've never done it before. Quite frankly, there's no manual for being a new mom. You sort of just
Damaged Parents: [00:06:41] isn't that the truth,
Marie Fraser: [00:06:43] you just can't go off and say, okay, page 36, this is what you need to do for whatever it's, and you're scared I defy any new wrong, not to say they're scared because you're so responsible for this new life.
So, you know, that was another end. That was another instance which became w which wasn't, a minor event that was really quite major. And then it would, when he came back from that trip, he bought a very, very quick airport purchase gift of, of a dress that I probably couldn't have got over my thigh.
Damaged Parents: [00:07:20] Oh, no, because you of course just had a baby. Oh dear. Yeah,
Marie Fraser: [00:07:25] exactly. there were these signs that know he was not in the marriage. No, not in the relationship.
Damaged Parents: [00:07:34] Right. Sounds like a huge disconnect. So I would say I'm pretending I'm him. So what I want is for you to be able to wear this nice dress.
So I'm going to get this nice dress regardless of what it is you want or need. And so it's just, that would be very confusing. I think, to be in that type of a relationship,
Marie Fraser: [00:08:01] It is because you know, this was sort of. Um, several, obviously this was not at the very beginning of our relationship or the marriage.
I think how I I've got to back up a little bit, I was a very independent corporate woman. And, I have my identity and he had his job and what have you. But it did change when I became a full-time mom, because then I almost was under, under his control.
Because I wasn't financially independent anymore. And it, I was, at home with the children and it was, um, you know, he did work away a lot, which he don't, he always had done and which was completely, acceptable to me because I've been used to it for many, many years, but it was then became, his.
Almost like the attention. He was probably missing the attention, which was being taken away by bringing two boys up. Oh, th I always felt that there was like an element of that jealousy. He wasn't, having my own divided attention. It was a very peculiar situation.
Damaged Parents: [00:09:24] Yeah. So you've got two children who really need and want your love and support and deserve it.
And then you've got this man, their father, and he's almost, it sounds like your experience of the situation was he was jealous and I would venture to say maybe upset that there were these kids taking your attention away from him.
Marie Fraser: [00:09:48] I think that's right. Uh, you know, I think that's right. Which was only sort of several years later that that sort of hit me, as being, an actual fact, it was very, um, It seems crazy.
And even after the event and then, a long time after the event, it's almost like I'm embarrassed that I actually put, I went through those scenarios. Does that make sense?
Damaged Parents: [00:10:17] That you're embarrassed that you chose him and then had,
Marie Fraser: [00:10:20] No, no, no not that , because I didn't know the full extent of his personality when we got together.
But when I look fine at the scenarios that I was put in. I've gone from a very strong corporate woman to really a form, a vision of myself and posts up with, or just, got on with a lot of crap because as time went on, I was not independent. And then, the boys loved the father and when you're in the sorts of clutches of a narcissist, you believe it's your fault.
You've done something wrong. You know, I, I should have done this. Perhaps I could have done it that way. And after a long time, it then becomes like walking on eggshells. It's like, you can't do anything right at all.
Damaged Parents: [00:11:19] Right. So is it kind of like, if I just would've done this, then maybe this would have happened or if I would've done this, so anytime you make a choice, then you're probably thinking, tell me if I get this wrong, but I'm thinking, you're probably thinking I've got to get this right.
And I'm going to think through every possible scenario I can think through, and then I'm going to make the best choice I can and gosh, darn it. But so it's almost like you're having to manipulate also in a way. And I don't know if that's the right word.
Marie Fraser: [00:11:57] No, I think what it's more like is you're almost having to preempt every future situation.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:04] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:12:05] You know, to try and smooth the road because you're never quite sure what's going to come flying back at you
Damaged Parents: [00:12:12] because it's not consistent either.
Marie Fraser: [00:12:16] And he's absolutely exhaust stable. And I don't know whether you know anything about it, narcissist or narcissism. I always have difficulty, saying that word, just because I can't get my tone range.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:30] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:12:30] And you know, these, these people, first of all, have no conception of other people's feelings. I mean, empathy is a very strong word, but they do like, and Percy. Yeah. So for example, you know, the, the fact of going off on a holiday with his friends to watch the rugby, well, we'd got a new born baby that just did not figure in his psyche.
That was okay with him. Whereas most normal people would have said, well, of course, you can't go because it just wouldn't have happened.
Damaged Parents: [00:13:13] Or at least there would have been a conversation. It doesn't even sound like there's a conversation they want what they want and they're going to take it.
Marie Fraser: [00:13:20] Absolutely. And it doesn't really matter whether you agree or you don't. And that went on for a very long time. I mean, another classic example is the last family home that we bought. I really disliked it. It was just, I. Just didn't feel it was right. And I argued until I was blue in the face, but he decided that that was the warm we were going.
You know, that was say, it just went off, and bought seats. And it was about two years later that one of the neighbors told me a previous name, a previous owner of the house had committed suicide in it. And I just got this. Feeling that it wasn't right. And it was, it was quite an unhappy time because I was, I, I didn't want to say stuck there.
I mean, I was there, he was working away all the week and would come back at the week, come home at the weekends. But it was almost as though, analysis has got very grandioso ideas, you know? Okay. It was a very nice house. It was a big house, et cetera, but it was almost like it was a badge for him.
Right. Look at this, trinket that I got to haven't I done well, it was all about his, his persona to the rest of the world. If that makes any sense,
Damaged Parents: [00:14:41] I think so. I, I think what I hear you saying is he needed to look and have certain look a certain way and have certain things that said I'm successful and you want to be my friend and give me what I want.
Marie Fraser: [00:14:53] Yes. I know exactly, exactly. I mean the very arrogant, as I said, they've got these grandioso ideas and personas, they always right. There is absolutely no point arguing because they will argue that black is white and it does become exhausted. There's no logic, that's quite delusional.
Damaged Parents: [00:15:18] So did black eventually become white for you in some ways?
Marie Fraser: [00:15:22] Absolutely.
Damaged Parents: [00:15:23] And how so? It sounds like that was a slow process where you talked about the nagging at the beginning, you've talked now about trinkets and being, a trophy. Did you feel like a trophy wife and on some level?
Marie Fraser: [00:15:37] So, because, material things whilst they're very nice, I've never felt that they defined who I was.
Damaged Parents: [00:15:44] Right. But did he, do you think he defined for you as a trophy wife?
Marie Fraser: [00:15:49] Um, yeah, possibly that's something that I'll be honest with you, it's something I'd actually that I'd not thought of, but you know, certainly not all the material, things were trophies, the fancy sports cars and this, that, and the other, they were, there were sorts of trophies, to the rest of the world of, How well I'm doing, look at me aren't I, just, doing so well and wanting admiration.
I mean, narcissists, want permanent admiration,
Damaged Parents: [00:16:19] which he would get from the kids, right?
Marie Fraser: [00:16:22] Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Uh,
Damaged Parents: [00:16:26] but he needed more.
Marie Fraser: [00:16:28] Yeah. I mean, he still shifts. Um, I mean, his personality is such that he is know he's very uncomfortable by himself. He needs to have a lot of people around him. And, um, yeah, I, I mean, we haven't been together now for 10 years.
So for me, I can only talk about how it was when we were together, my personal experience, of that situation. I don't know. I assume, narcissist they're resolving changing, and the reason, that I'm quite gender on this now is because I didn't realize he was a narcissist until, a few years after we parted because I couldn't understand the behavior.
Damaged Parents: [00:17:16] So how did you figure that out?
Marie Fraser: [00:17:18] Basically, I retrained as a therapist and coach and, I've worked with lots of different people now, and it was, going through the traits of a, narcissist that I thought, Oh my God, that is exactly.
what I'd experienced of all those years. I mean, it was almost a mirror of the personality of, of the ex-husband.
Damaged Parents: [00:17:47] Was that disappointing for you or?
Marie Fraser: [00:17:50] No, it wasn't disappointing. I'll tell you what it was. It was almost relieving because when you are in turn, the clutches of the nurse assessed, do you think it's, you think you're the one that's going mad?
Damaged Parents: [00:18:04] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:18:05] Because no matter what you think to say or do is either contradicted or it's belittled and there's so much manipulation
Damaged Parents: [00:18:16] well, I was just wondering, were you ever made to believe that your thoughts weren't that what you thought happened didn't happen or,
Marie Fraser: [00:18:25] yeah, absolutely.
Damaged Parents: [00:18:27] What did that feel like inside?
When it happened or did you even recognize it right away?
Marie Fraser: [00:18:36] There would be instances I'd think of, I just dreamt this. Okay. Is it, is this for real? And I think then what happens? Certainly what happens for me is you become numb to it. The interesting thing was I'd forgotten who I was.
I'd lost all sense of. You know who I was in my, and my twenties and, know, later twenties, I was, I mean, look, every life's experience. Demands are different us. You know, I'm not the same person I was in my twenties, thirties, et cetera. I'm not the same person. I was at the beginning of the marriage that I was at the end of the marriage.
I'm a different person because I'm a mother and, motherhood next, you become different because you're, these experiences are demanding different. Aspects off you. So, yeah, certainly I had no clue at the end when I was finally on my own, I had no idea who I was, you know, who was this woman who I didn't know what I wanted.
I knew I wanted some peace. I knew I wanted to be free. And I knew I wanted to have some fun back in my life because fun is very important to me, but I wasn't quite sure how I was going to get it. And it was just a question I thought rebuilding and sort of reinventing myself is going back to the skeleton and then put in the flesh on the bone.
Damaged Parents: [00:20:10] Hmm. That sounds really hard.
Marie Fraser: [00:20:14] Well, we've got an amazing humans are fabulous. You know, we've got this amazing survival instinct. I mean, it sounds a bit sort of dramatic, same as survival instinct, but I knew that I didn't want to be the person that I was. At the end of the marriage, I just felt absolutely exhausted.
And I wanted to be that fun, loving woman that ha I had been 20 odd years earlier.
Damaged Parents: [00:20:43] Right? Well, it was hard to get out of. I'm sure
Marie Fraser: [00:20:47] it was because over the years, I did try to leave several times. But, it just, it was very difficult. And also if I'm honest with you, I, I didn't want to break the family up.
I wanted, family life, but, on hindsight I perhaps should have been stronger. It doesn't really matter. It didn't happen. So, I don't have any regrets about it, about not, leaving earlier, but it, I'm a big believer of the universe gives you what you can deal with.
And I think it's, Everything happens at the right time for you. So, um, yeah, I mean, look to the first, probably six months, I just went around in a fog rarely. There was this sort of a big sign of relief because I didn't feel that pressure that become, you know, it becomes fair when I was in his company.
So there was a, there was a relief if there, and I felt so much freer.
Damaged Parents: [00:21:52] Was it also scary?
Marie Fraser: [00:21:54] Yes, of course. because every relationship breakup is scary because even if it's not a happy relationship, there's that familiarity. And then all of a sudden you're going from familiarity to uncertainty. So yes, it's scary at first
you know, I, I not, I don't advocate having your own pity party because that's not going to get you anywhere. And, I learned very early on is, laugh and everybody will laugh with you cry and you'll cry on your own because, but, don't get me wrong. I, there were sort of close friends.
I could have a cry wherever I wanted to, but you could only do that for so long because your friends will get fed up of it. You know, they're much less me. There'll be much more supportive if they can see that you're really trying to get yourself out of the hole.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:52] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:22:52] Whereas if you're going to sit there forever going, Oh, woe is me.
Woe is me. They're going to say, Oh gosh, you know, I can't really, how can I help her? How can I, you know?
Damaged Parents: [00:23:03] Right. So you're there though. You're there, you've left. You're scared. And what are you doing to keep moving forward? Or what are those feelings like or what helps propel you? Maybe that's the best question.
Marie Fraser: [00:23:15] Yeah, what helps propel me is that I, wanted say a better life. I just knew I was going to have that for myself and my kids. My children were in the teens at the time, so, you know, they weren't young babies, but they weren't. I don't think it really matters what age children are.
I mean, I think any, any family breakup is tough on them. So the first priority was I wanted to be a good role model for my children. And, secondly, I wanted to be a good role model for myself. And so to start to. Love myself again and be proud of myself again, because at that moment in time, I didn't even really like myself.
Nevermind anything else. So it was doing a lot of work on me because, once you have got your, once you've got the confidence and the self. The leaf, it sort of galvanizes you into taking risks. I don't mean crazy risks, but you're much more, you know, when you're feeling confident, you're much more likely to take some risks
Damaged Parents: [00:24:33] and not desperate risks.
Marie Fraser: [00:24:35] No, no, no, no, no desperate risks. I do not advocate making. I don't have to keep making, mega decisions when you are temporarily, emotionally upset. I didn't make any major decisions. So what happened was with the, my breakup was that I stayed in the marital home with the children.
And that went up for sale, but it didn't, it, we were having a recession. Um, was there a recession or just a property? Not very, property. Wasn't moving in, um, 2011, 2010, 2011. So it took three years to sell the house. Oh, wow. I was in the house for three years by myself with the children.
So, I had a lot of time to actually think, I would have made the right decision, whether I would've had to have moved in six months. But, to be honest with you, it wasn't ideal because I was, I felt I couldn't move forward as much because I was still stuck in the marital home. But on the other hand, it did give me time to fate.
And what I did is when it was eventually sold, I moved to a different part of the country altogether. I knowing nobody. And how to, have seven years in this particular city where it was, I had a really good time. I made new friends and that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to make some new friends and actually start a new life.
Damaged Parents: [00:26:05] Did you cut off a lot of friends when you were in the marriage?
Marie Fraser: [00:26:09] No, not really, but the other interesting thing was I had a lot of friends, prior to marriage and so did he, but he, didn't like my friends, no reason why he didn't like my friends, but, he was very rude. With all of my friends.
And it was almost as though I was too embarrassed to then join them as a couple. I would go and see them by myself, but we didn't get involved as a couple. It was all his friends that we were involved with. And then of course of the years we made some mutual friends. The interesting thing is, I don't know whether any, anybody can relate to their sport.
I find it very sad as a single woman. Couples tend to drop you because, you're sort of the odd number to dinner party. Or God forbid that the other women think you're a threat, you might want to run off with it, which I found quite outrageous. But, so I think that was another reason why I just thought, you know what, I'm going to move away from the area.
Totally. Because get invited to, the social gatherings that I used to as a couple.
Damaged Parents: [00:27:22] So that must have been painful too. So you've got the loss of the, or the ending of a marriage, I should say. And then another loss of friends and a group of people that used to be supporting, I guess, in some ways.
Marie Fraser: [00:27:35] Right? Yeah.
Damaged Parents: [00:27:36] So I think what you did, just knowing that takes so much courage for you to be able to walk away and say, this is not. Something I want to be in anymore, but I don't think you knew that beforehand, but experiencing that, looking for me to hear you tell that story. I just, I hear a lot of bravery and courage.
I also hear sadness because of loss.
Marie Fraser: [00:28:04] Of course, there's always sadness with loss and, I think. I was sad that the family unit broke down. I found that very, very sad indeed. And I felt it for the, for my children. And, the statistics are that their divorces, is over 50%, certainly here in the UK.
But the interesting thing was that non of our mutual friends were divorced or separated. We were the only ones and, my children didn't that none of their friends were so happy to have parents who were separated either. So I think there was sadness in that and yeah, I suppose sadness in that, it just didn't work and it was a shame, but, um, yeah.
But after, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I've, I don't certainly, I don't really feel sad about it anymore. It's given me a new lease of life. It's given me, my identity bike and a new identity. Yes, of course, you know, you, you, you do, you do need bravery and courage, but it's like, , the saying, nothing grows in the comfort zone.
Damaged Parents: [00:29:18] My friend, Kristin Childs, we posted her quote on the website or on the Facebook page, damaged parents the other day. It's a, there's no comfort in the growth zone and no growth in the comfort zone.
Marie Fraser: [00:29:32] It's true. And it's really true. And I suppose, I was getting on the bat, in my early fifties.
So that's, you know, it's harder as you get older for sure. Um, but on the other hand, it's a lot harder to be miserable.
Damaged Parents: [00:29:48] That's poignant. That is very poignant.
Marie Fraser: [00:29:51] Yeah. Yeah. It is. Life is so precious and every day's a gift and to be in a situation where your you're sad or miserable, or you're not living your full life or full potential to me, that's a tragedy.
Damaged Parents: [00:30:07] Yeah. It really is. You've got two young sons are not young. I mean, in my book, in your book, they were young teenagers when you left and how you say, I mean, how did they take that? And. Does dad still have a relationship with them?
Marie Fraser: [00:30:27] Yeah. both boys have got different, things that they're interested in a company, what the word is, the hobbies and what have you.
So my eldest son is very, very creative and he's. Well, he's just amazingly creative. He's just written a play. That's just been filmed over the internet and he's got his in partnership on it in a theater company. And, so yeah, he's very, happy doing, doing that. And I'm very, very proud of him.
My I'm not, he's not especially close to his father. And I think the majority of that is because they don't have very much in common.
Damaged Parents: [00:31:04] Hmm,
Marie Fraser: [00:31:05] you know, hobby wise or interests wise, whereas, my youngest son, he likes. All the things that his father likes. So they got much more in common than, the, my eldest son has, which is interesting because I've got a lot in common with my eldest son.
Damaged Parents: [00:31:24] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:31:25] And I'm sure that's the, that, and the, as in my family growing up, I had much more in common with my father. Then I did with my mother. And my sister had more in common with my mother's than, than with my father. But, the boys are growing up now. I mean, they're sorts of 23 and 25 and the youngest one, obviously is not, able to be independent, but my oldest son is he's living his own life and he's got his own agenda.
Yeah. Now you said, obviously I know, but the, our audience doesn't know what's going on with your youngest son. Yes.
He was diagnosed with cerebral palsy when he was talking them sold.
So that was a bit of a shock. And, especially when you think you've got a normal, healthy child and, whilst, he's very mobile. and just, it walks with a lame pundits. Like he's had a stroke down one side, but he's got lots of other, disabilities and, needs, so he's not independent.
And he is. Here in the UK, you can actually go to, special needs college until you're 25. So he's currently in a residential special needs college, learning life skills, which is the most important thing for him. He doesn't need academia. He needs to be able to learn the life skills.
He's not going to be able to live independently. So, you're forever monitoring, what progress has been made and the next stage for, this, that and the other. But you know, he's incredibly happy. Where he is, is very supportive?
I mean, you know, the whole world is on its backside at the moment because of COVID unfortunately. So none of us are able to do. What we would normally do. So, he'd be able to be going out into the community and doing little bits of work, but supported by a carer and stuff. But at the moment, he's not able to do that.
So he's, he's isolated. That is college and where isolate in a home and sometimes feel like we're going stir crazy.
Damaged Parents: [00:33:37] Oh I know.
Marie Fraser: [00:33:39] Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, I mean, we live by the beach, so it's not too bad, although it's very, there's lots of snow at the moment, but at least we've got the freedom of being able to get out into the fresh air.
Both boys are fine, I'm sure the father is incredibly proud of both of them. I really don't have a lot of communication with the father. Unfortunately the divorce was very acrimonious and it took seven years to finalize. That was a, that was an exhausting process as well.
So I've only really been totally free for the last. Three years.
Damaged Parents: [00:34:17] Oh my goodness.
Marie Fraser: [00:34:19] But it's just like one of those is it, you know, the way I sorted dealt with it was I just removed all emotion from it. It just became like a business transaction because I think otherwise it would have just been too much.
Damaged Parents: [00:34:35] Right.
Marie Fraser: [00:34:35] Uh, you know, to get totally, emotionally involved in it all the time. But, again, that was just another trait of a narcissist, not one, being totally delusional about what the law says and et cetera, et cetera, because I re I remember saying to my lawyer, surely his lawyer must be saying to for goodness sake, What, what, what, what, why, why are you making it drag out?
This should have been sorted out a long time ago, but I think he was better. I, you know, fortunately I think he was very angry with, the whole sort of split, et cetera. I think he would have, carry it on right as it was in a, for indefinitely, which is, well, certainly wasn't a life for me and that's for sure.
Damaged Parents: [00:35:20] Maybe the attorney just wanted the money.
Marie Fraser: [00:35:24] Well, yeah, no, that's another story Angela. Yeah, we can all talk about attorney's and their fees..
Damaged Parents: [00:35:32] I don't know, maybe some of them are happy to get the narcissists because they're going to pay.
I'm sure they probably are.
There.
Right, right. Yes. I'm picking up on that right.
Marie Fraser: [00:35:43] Yeah. Yeah, no, you hit the nail on the head. that's. That's how it was. Yeah. I'm sure that the lawyers love having the narcissistic clients.
Damaged Parents: [00:35:52] So would you say he was a different person to you then to the boys? Or does he just show up all around as a narcissistic person?
Marie Fraser: [00:36:02] I it's quite interesting, really, because, there was a swimming, you know, he did. Do, um, a smear campaign.
Damaged Parents: [00:36:10] Hmm.
Marie Fraser: [00:36:11] Not with my eldest son, but certainly with his brother.
And that was very, very, it's very upsetting because it did affect my relationship with my youngest son.
Damaged Parents: [00:36:24] So when you say smear campaign, are you talking about, he's trying to get the youngest son to believe that you are a horrible person?
Marie Fraser: [00:36:33] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I'm also with friends. And the people at my youngest son's college.
So that was, that was very upsetting because my youngest son wouldn't speak to me for 12 months and he refused any contact with me at all. And I couldn't believe that. His father would stoop so low as to do something like that to try and turn a child against his mother. And he did. And it was only that my eldest son had been at his father's house and heard him.
And so he told me, and I just sort of flipped. I just hit the roof. And what I did was I actually went to the college where my youngest son is and told them what had been going on. Because if you just seen the text that my, youngest son was sending me, and of course the college would have seen it as well.
And they must have thought I was some sort of. Maniac and, horrible mother. But when I explained to them what had happened and average state, from, my eldest son at the college were fantastic. They really worked on my youngest son. It mean not work. What worked on them to sort of explain the, you know, they, they didn't call this father or anything like that, but they just said, mommy loves you very much, et cetera, et cetera.
So that took around sorts of 12, 15 months for him to. Go back to how we used to be. So yeah, that was the, I think that was probably the worst 15months of my life. Nevermind the 27 years. But to think that your child hates you was just the worst thing ever
Damaged Parents: [00:38:29] devastating.
Marie Fraser: [00:38:30] Yeah, totally. And I have one very close. coupple. There were mutual friends who met together and the ex-husband would just do nothing but bad mouth me all the time. And the wife just stood up one day and said enough. Just if you're going to, you know, every time you come and see us, if that's all you're going to come out with, please don't come.
Don't come anymore. And, I think he's still friends with the husband, but he's not very friendly with the wife. Yeah. Cause you know, he was cooled down. Narcissists don't like being called out.
Damaged Parents: [00:39:11] No,
Marie Fraser: [00:39:12] um, I don't, I don't, know I mean, I it's very, you know, it's sort of, there is manipulation, certainly.
I'm not quite sure whether the youngest son would. Uh, understand what was happening, but because he enjoys doing a lot of what his father does, then, he's happy to go along. And, but I th I think there's been instances where my eldest son is, felt manipulated, but, he's old enough now and strong enough to actually not go along with it.
Damaged Parents: [00:39:43] Well, and it sounds like you were significantly manipulated throughout the marriage and. And your husband was very, very sly. If you will. Very careful in some ways, maybe in how he manipulated you. So it was almost like you were unaware of it on some level, a little bit, maybe a lot of gaslighting, if you will, the lights aren't flickering, but they're flickering.
Right? Absolutely. And, because your son is your youngest is special needs with cerebral palsy, right? Yeah. I. And not certain that, that manipulation by dad and I could be wrong. I think it could have happened to any child that had such a deep relationship and so many similarities with that particular parent.
If that parent and you please do tell me if you think I'm off base, a parent has a significant amount of power and authority over children and it's, to me, I consider that sacred. And if you have a parent that a child just relates to so deeply and they take advantage of that, I don't think it matters if the child is disabled or not, they can still end up going down.
Well, if dad hates mom or mom hates dad, depending on who they relate with, and they're using that power and authority in appropriately, then they're going to lean that way.
Marie Fraser: [00:41:14] I think you're absolutely right. Yeah. I think it was irrelevant to my youngest son's, disabilities. I think the fact that they are close because of the, things that they like to do and they spend, they spend much more time together.
Then, he was the obvious choice. I you're, right. It does. It does. Is his disability was irrelevant.
Damaged Parents: [00:41:36] Yeah. I'm just, it just was something that flashed through my mind is, is part of, you know, there's so many times... I'm disabled. I ha you don't know that.
So, um, I actually, I'm going to show you why my left hand is. Stuck in this position. Uh, so it's, it's kind of in a curved position for the listeners and my right hand. I cannot open all the way or close all the way. And then I have problems with my legs as well. So, There are many times that I think in my own mind, I decided it was my disability.
And not thinking that I was capable. And I'm thinking your youngest son has brought you joy and sorrow and the complexity of life, not just, he's not just a thing. Right. You know, he has more than that. So could you tell us more about that?
Marie Fraser: [00:42:30] Oh my God. He has given me so many gifts. Um, you know, he, well, both my kids are gifts, both of them.
And my life is totally complete because of them. And, but what my youngest son taught me was patience. And, I can't, I don't think I was ever a patient person really. I mean, as, as I was saying to you off there, I think, I used to run, corporate American law firms. As a job, that was very fast paced and it was one, one bomb.
So, I wasn't used to having much patience, everything had to be done yesterday. but certainly. With my youngest son. I mean, children, they do give you this. They do make you patient because, you can only go at their speed, but of course, without the disabilities, children move at a certain rate.
And then all of a sudden, before you know where you are, the teenagers and you just. Can't believe it's that's happened, but when you have, disabilities and, whether the mild or severe, you can only go at his pace and it can be the most frustrating thing in the world, you know, bless because, cognitively.
There's you know, intangible concepts don't mean anything to him. So time means nothing. And, so classic examples are, if we want to go to the cinema and we'll say, it has to be almost plumbed to military precision. We have to make sure we've eaten. We've been to the bathroom, we've done X, Y and said, I've got this, I've got that.
I've got the other. And then we go, and then all of a sudden he may decide. The, he doesn't want to go right now. He wants to go in 10 minutes time. And you're trying to explain, well, if we don't leave now, then we're going to miss the beginning of the film. That's the matter. And in the beginning I used to get incredibly frustrated and now it's sort of okay, fine.
Whatever. So, it's taught me a lot of patience and unfortunately one of his major disabilities is that he has no speech articulation. And, you know, obviously cognitively there is a delay there. So, he experiences massive amounts of frustration because he can't communicate.
And if we, any of you have been to a foreign country and you can't speak the language, you know how frustrating that can be, and it's frustrating for him. And it's frustrating for us. Do you know what I'm saying? So you just have to learn to sort of, there is, an element of preempting. Possible scenarios and then trying to make them go as smoothly as possible.
But that is not always possible. And there will be four lights and you just have to deal with that as an as, and when it happens. But what it's taught me is if I can re what he's taught me is I can remain calm. When everything else is falling around that's that keeps him calm. He doesn't like to be, you know, he's, he's very aware of his disability, which is, it's very sad and he gets frustrated with himself, which is heartbreaking.
But it also makes him angry too. And so it's a question of trying to sort of do it in diffuse. Situations, but yeah, patience. I've been taught and you know, an enormous and , I've learned a lot from him. He's understanding patients and it's in the other person's view of the world.
It's not you, I can't go, you can't go through life. Just, through your eyes, you've got to put yourself or try and put yourself in the other person's. Shoes to try and understand where they're coming from. And I think when you have a disability and not, I think it's so helpful and useful to be able to do that because we've all got, different, agendas, different views, different ideas, and, communication, patience and understanding, I think, pretty cool.
Damaged Parents: [00:46:58] It sounds like what I'm hearing is regardless of his limitations, he has been such a value to you and the world around you. And, he's an amazing spirit that wants to share. He still gets frustrated and he still gets angry and he also still has joy. And so he's very much another human having the human experience, which show.
You know is really, I think fabulous now I, because I understand, or I don't want to, just focus on him. You've got two sons, so I would love to hear what you learned from your oldest son.
Marie Fraser: [00:47:36] Kindness. He's probably the, one of, probably the, one of the kindest people. I know. It's very funny. and I'm very proud to have been very proud.
Yeah. He's a very special guy. Yeah. Yeah. He makes my heart sing. They both do. They both do, but I I'm very, especially close to my,
Damaged Parents: [00:48:02] I can sense the love. I can sense it.
Oh, Marie, this has been a fabulous conversation. Thank you. I'm really glad that you were able to come here and share the struggle of escaping. The clutches of a narcissist and to the beauty of what it was like to become who you were meant to be, and to recognize the blessings of the children that, that you were able to have.
So thank you so much.
Marie Fraser: [00:48:37] My pleasure, Angela, it's been, it's been lovely, lovely to meet you as well.
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of relatively damaged by damaged parents. We really enjoyed talking to Marie about how she escaped the clutches of a narcissist and found fun. We especially liked when she spoke with an abundance of love for her children. To unite with other damaged people.
Connect with us on Instagram. Look for damaged parents. This podcast was sponsored in part by arches audio. We'll be here next week. Still relatively damaged. See you then.
