Episode 8: My Dad was a Narcissist
Cammie Winston
Bio: As the great granddaughter of German immigrants, I was raised on the South Dakota farm they started from raw prairie land in the mid-1880’s. Through their hard work and sacrifices they were able to build a farm that has sustained four generations and that we still own today. Farm life taught me plenty and because of it, I developed the skills and work ethic that shaped my entire life. I have so much gratitude for being able to build a successful broadcasting career and to be an entrepreneur in the voiceover industry.
Today my husband Jeff and I are flirting with the idea of retirement, traveling the world and doting on our amazing grandchildren.
Find Cammie here:
Professional Voiceover Services - Training and Workshops (cammiewinston.com)
Podcast transcript below:
Podcast
Welcome to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents where splintered, unraveled, bent people come to learn maybe just, maybe we're all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume. 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.
Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than. Like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about.
In my ongoing investigation of the damage self, I want to better understand how others view their own challenges. Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience?
My hero is the damaged person. The one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side hole. Those who stared directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose. These are the people who inspire me to be more fully me, not in spite of my trials, but because of them. Let's hear from another hero.
Today's topic includes sensitive material, which may not be appropriate for children. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here. We're strictly those of the person who gave them.
Today, we're going to talk with Cammie Winston. She has many roles in her life, daughter, protector, voiceover artist, friend, and more. We'll talk about how she never felt good enough in the eyes of her father. How her father put her and her mother down to feel good about himself and how she found an online community, so she didn't feel alone and more. Let's talk.
Angela: [00:02:15] Why? Hello Cammie, thank you for coming on to Relatively Damaged.
Cammie: [00:02:19] Well, thank you, Angela. It's fun to be here with you today.
Angela: [00:02:23] Yeah, we get to talk about some tuff stuff.
Cammie: [00:02:28] True. True. When you first, , approached me on this and asked me if the, you know, what my childhood was like, if there's anything that I felt was difficult, my first instinct was to say yeah everything was fine. You know, not me. There's nothing that I have to tell. And then I thought, you know, what, why am I doing this?
Why am I, , minimizing what I went through when I was a kid? And, , it wasn't okay. It, wasn't fine. And I'm finally at a point where it's like, Yeah. , I can talk about this. I could share it with others. And my hope , is that other people can learn something from it. So no one can hold on to, has to hold on to pain for a long time that they can figure out what it is and why it happened and find your happy and move forward.
Angela: [00:03:20] Yeah. So my understanding is that you grew up with a narcissistic father.
Cammie: [00:03:28] I did. , but I didn't know that's what he was until decades later. Narcissists are very good at. Telling you what a wonderful person they are and how smart they are and how much better they are than everybody else. And you believe it as a child, it's your parents. , and you've put them on a pedestal.
And, so I just thought I had the best dad in the world, but I was just not the best child in the world because that's what narcissists do they build themselves up by cutting other people down.
Angela: [00:04:03] okay. Let me see if I understand. So with the narcissist, if I'm in the room with a narcissist, I'm going to know that they're the best because they tell me not because of the experience
Cammie: [00:04:20] Yes. Absolutely.
Angela: [00:04:22] Okay. and so as a child, it would be really hard to differentiate.
Cammie: [00:04:30] Well, as a child, you don't have anything else to gauge it by, you know, you don't have any other life experience. So whatever your parent tells you, that's the truth. You believe it.
Angela: [00:04:43] Right.
Cammie: [00:04:43] And my only comparison would be, , to go visit a girlfriend, a friend, and spend time at their house and see how their parents are treating them, which was always better than my father treated me.
So it all it told me was, yes, I'm not a really good kid, because if I was my parents, my dad would treat me like my girlfriend's dad treated her.
Angela: [00:05:10] give us an example of what he would do. you knew he was good and you didn't know , you were okay. So was it in how he talked to you?
Cammie: [00:05:19] Oh, there's so many things. , first of all, narcissists are not affectionate. They don't show love. you have to show and shower them with love all the time. And, but you never get anything in return. And if you do something that they feel is going to overshadow them, that you're going to do something better than they could do, they're going to minimize it.
a good example is, and that was in high school when this happened. I was, it was toward the end of my junior year and I decided I was going to run for student body president.
Angela: [00:05:59] Big deal
Cammie: [00:06:00] And it was a big deal back in 1976 to do something like that, especially for a woman, , back then, , women were just starting to be a women's lib and, you know, being treated more equally to men.
So I was pretty proud of myself and I was helping dad one day on the farm and I was talking about how I was going to be running and how I felt I had a good chance. And he turned to me and he said, Well, you're not gonna win, you know, that, and it just stopped me in my tracks and I go, why am I not going to win?
And he said, well, you're, you're running against the most popular guy in the school and he's going to win. And I was just devastated. I mean, just,
Angela: [00:06:43] I would have felt defeated like before the race defeated, because now dad doesn't believe in me.
Cammie: [00:06:50] No, no. and what happened with that? It also infuriated me because I was old enough at that point to think independently from him and realize that he was not my whole universe anymore. And what it did is it just made it doubled my efforts, one way or another. I was going to win that race. And I've never worked so hard on anything in my whole life and the guy who was running against.
Yeah. He was supposed popular guy in the school and he figured he didn't have to work at this. And he didn't. and so I outworked him in it and I did end up winning.
Angela: [00:07:24] Nice.
Cammie: [00:07:25] this point in the story, people would, when I'd share the story with people, they'd go. So what did your dad say then? And. I don't know what he said.
I don't remember. So I'm assuming he said nothing, , because if he would have said anything to me at all, I would have remembered it. , but they can't acknowledge other people's achievements. They just can't. , because ultimately a narcissist is someone who is damaged. And more than likely from what I've learned through my education in narcissism is that something happened to them traumatically in their childhood.
And, they've got extremely low self-esteem. They feel really miserable about themselves. And the only thing that makes them feel better is by tearing other people down.
Angela: [00:08:15] see, that's confusing to me because I would, I mean, if my child does something successful, I want to celebrate it.
Cammie: [00:08:26] Sure.
Angela: [00:08:26] And in some ways, Even though I know it has nothing to do with me in some ways I'm like, Oh, I did something. Right. You know, that thought process. So it's backwards to me.
Cammie: [00:08:40] It's a really odd thing. Now, narcissists will recognize achievements in other people and as someone that wants to study narcissism and they start learning about it. narcissists have people that they call their supply. They supply the boost in their self esteem. And so they go back to those people to bring down, to bring themselves up.
And one of the other tricks narcissists use to keep their supply. People like me in control is by, like if a girlfriend comes over, my dad will shower, shower, all kinds of compliments on that person in front of me. things he'd never ever say to me, , you look nice and I heard you got an, a in spelling and all this type of stuff,
Angela: [00:09:33] they clearly said he was paying attention and he knew what was going on with that other person. So then he wouldn't give that to you. And so you didn't know what he thought because it was better to keep you under his thumb, if you will.
Cammie: [00:09:50] Right. And, yeah, it was very important to keep us under our, under his thumb. Uh, because he had control then, and he had somebody that made him feel better by cutting us down. It's weird. It's very, very strange. and what, what happens is people go, wow. Did you hate your dad? Did you hate him because of this?
You don't hate the person that's doing this to you. You hate yourself.
Angela: [00:10:22] That's that's hard.
Cammie: [00:10:26] Right, right. Because you feel you're never good enough.
Angela: [00:10:30] Okay, so you started realizing it in high school that maybe it could be more
Cammie: [00:10:33] Yes I was able to start separating. The fact that this man who was bigger than life really wasn't, you know, he was kind of a bully. He was mean, but I didn't know. He was a narcissist. Nobody talked about narcissism back in the 1960s and seventies. People didn't talk much about anything. If you were suffering or in pain, you didn't tell anybody you kept that private,
Angela: [00:10:58] Yeah
Cammie: [00:10:58] Don't tell anybody that, you should be ashamed of yourself. So you kept all that private, you just did.
Angela: [00:11:06] So that must've been really difficult because I think what I'm picturing in my mind is this broken piece of my heart. If I were like that child, right. If I were in your shoes, just feeling broken.
Cammie: [00:11:22] You just don't have the words for it. You just realize that you're a disappointment. That's how you look at it. That you're a disappointment that you're doing things wrong. And if I could only be better, that's how you think.
Angela: [00:11:36] So it would seem to me that maybe after that working really hard would probably be part of your personality. You're going to be a hard worker because you don't have value. And the only way to get value is to work really hard. And then to get some validation elsewhere. Or am I going down the wrong track there?
Cammie: [00:11:56] I think you are absolutely on the right track. And I have worked really hard in my career, not only for myself and to achieve what I want to, but there was always him in the background of my head that, you know, if I do this, he's going to see this and he's going to be really proud of me. I've tried my whole life.
That was always the underlying theme, but you never get that. You never get what you want from a narcissist ever. You just don't. I had hopes my whole life and it never happened. Not even once.
Angela: [00:12:26] so you would succeed at something and nothing from dad.
Cammie: [00:12:31] Nothing.
Angela: [00:12:32] Ow
Cammie: [00:12:33] Yeah. it's really something. but the thing is that, It doesn't define me anymore. I've learned how to work through it, but honestly, Angela, it's taken decades.
Angela: [00:12:44] Yeah.
Cammie: [00:12:45] and I always thought, and this is how you justify things. When you're in a painful situation. It's like, well, people mellow out as they get older ?
I bet as he gets older, it's going to be easier. And I really held on to that. , and no, it didn't, it didn't get easier at all. not at all. And that was disappointing. and then when he passed away a few years ago, I thought, well, now it's going to be over, the pain's over. but it just magnified.
What I had been through, because I didn't know how to let it go. You know, why was he this way? Why was he so mean? Why couldn't he show me love? All those things were on a continuous loop in my brain and making me crazy and keeping me from enjoying the wonderful life I have, ,
Angela: [00:13:29] So you were living in the past then.
Cammie: [00:13:32] yes. Yeah, because there was no resolution, it's easier to let something go when there's a resolution. but it never happened. and that's also typical of narcissists, since they are damaged, so to speak, they cannot confront their own problems and they will fight to the finish to protect themselves because it's never about the person they're hurting.
It's everything is about them. I've tried to try to talk to my father for. Decades and he fought and was mean and nasty about it. And again, him thinking, wow, I'm just not a good person. if he loved me, he would, talk to me about this, but no, he's just really hurt.
He's really hurt. Something happened to him when he was little and it defined his life and he carried it around with him his whole life. And, I understand that now. I'm not angry with him anymore. And I'm just sorry that he lived a life where he was so fragile and so hurt. And I also think that if he hadn't have been so hurt himself, he would have loved to be a good dad.
You know, he did a lot of good things in his own way. He was very generous with his money. And he did a lot for his church and helped his friends and, did a lot of good things. and nobody really knew what was going on with, my mother and me? We were the two in the family that were his supply for his narcissism.
So we got all the pain from him and everybody else, I think relatively saw the good he did in life.
Angela: [00:15:05] and you were the first born?
Cammie: [00:15:07] Yeah.
Angela: [00:15:08] and there were how many others, the other
Cammie: [00:15:10] I have one brother and one sister and they got a little bit of it. Uh, but I was the main person.
Angela: [00:15:17] So what was that like if you're the supply person for your narcissist father and you're watching your brother and your sister, what are you seeing in that family environment? From your perspective?
Cammie: [00:15:31] Well, I was very well aware of the fact that I could do no. Right. And, but my sister and brother just did not get that same harsh treatment, even though they may have acted exactly the same as me, how do you justify that you hold it inside and realize that, or you think that I'm a bad person?
Angela: [00:15:54] Right
Cammie: [00:15:54] I'm a bad person.
Angela: [00:15:56] So, you would pay the price or not even get the kudos for doing something good. And would you see brother and sister get those kudos?
Cammie: [00:16:07] Yes.
Angela: [00:16:08] And did it appear like they were supported, whereas you weren't?
Cammie: [00:16:15] Yes.
Angela: [00:16:15] And how did that show up? in the family dynamic, you're sitting at a family dinner and he can have these great conversations with brother and sister, but not you
Cammie: [00:16:28] he didn't really have concrete patients with any of his children, per se. when you, when you have a, like a family meal with a narcissist, you are a member of the audience. And you're listening to stories about how great he is
Angela: [00:16:48] Ah
Cammie: [00:16:48] , and that sounds really awful. Doesn't it? But that's exactly what it was.
Angela: [00:16:53] Yeah.
Cammie: [00:16:54] I don't ever remember him asking me or my brother or sister. So how was school today that never happened?
Angela: [00:17:02] Oh, wow.
Cammie: [00:17:06] Never ever.
Angela: [00:17:07] But he would talk about work or whatever he felt he was doing right in his life.
Cammie: [00:17:13] Oh, he had, like a reel of stories that were rotated on things that he did and where he was recognized as something or that he achieved something or did something, or people looked up to him and we heard these stories regularly over and over and over again. But, no interest in us, it cracks me up now, but about 10 years ago.
I was in my early fifties and my dad and his wife came out to visit us in the winter, because it's freezing in South Dakota and I was working in my office and my dad came in there and he sat down and then he goes, what exactly is it that you do?
Angela: [00:17:51] Oh, no, this is only, this is 10 years ago. Oh my goodness. He still didn't have any idea.
Cammie: [00:17:59] He never really asked.
Angela: [00:18:01] And did you not tell him or was it?
Cammie: [00:18:05] Well, we never ever talked about anything in life that mattered. We never really had a conversation. my dad called me all the time. , he lived in South Dakota. I lived here in California and he'd call, but the conversations were always the same since he was a farmer. We'd have a 15 to a 30 minute conversation on the weather.
Every time. So how's the weather in South Dakota.
How much rain did you get? how are the crops looking? So we'd go through that every time. And then he'd go back to his reel of stories and pick out a story or two where he's, the guy that wins or looks great. The hero guy. and then he'd go, well, I gotta go.
And then that would be it. And that was my whole life with him. He never, ever wants to go ask me. So how do you feel about this? what are your hopes and dreams for the future? Never.
Angela: [00:19:04] So did mom help you with that emotional intelligence or did that come later?
Cammie: [00:19:11] My mother was amazing. My mom, believed in her children. She told me from the time I was a really little girl that I could do anything I wanted. If I wanted it bad enough, she was kind and generous, but she was also my dad's supply to feed his narcissism. So he chipped away at her self esteem too. So she was dealing with a battle too. and as, by the time I was a teenager, I found myself trying to protect her from him, because he'd Badger her about every little thing and cruel, very cruel. And so that was an extra burden for me as a child too, because it had such a wonderful mother and I couldn't stand him cutting her down, and he was doing that just because he was so insecure and it made him feel better by doing that. So that's how that relationship went.
Angela: [00:20:09] so it sounds like little comments made daily or regularly to keep the people, the supply, the people who were in supply down low enough that they won't outperform him maybe or out shine him.
Cammie: [00:20:27] That. And I think it just makes them feel better about themselves, that he probably felt so miserable that if he could cut somebody else down, it would ease his pain.
Angela: [00:20:41] Hmm.
Cammie: [00:20:42] And I also think, and I think this is important to mention is I don't think that he realized what he was doing.
Angela: [00:20:50] yeah.
Cammie: [00:20:50] the pain is so deep in their feelings of inferiority, , that they're desperate to do anything, to make their pain go away. And as maddening as it is, one of those ways is by cutting other people down.
Angela: [00:21:09] Yeah. Gosh, that seems like a really lonely place to be
Cammie: [00:21:15] Yeah
Angela: [00:21:16] as a narcissist.
Cammie: [00:21:17] right.
Angela: [00:21:18] okay. So how did you transition? You became president in high school, you graduate high school. Did you go away to college? What happened after that? That. Or I guess maybe the better question is when did you find out, I guess there's a couple of questions here,
Cammie: [00:21:38] We'll take it. Yes.
Angela: [00:21:41] You said you figured it out much later, but what was that process of leaving and how did that feel? And then, transitioning to later.
Cammie: [00:21:53] When I graduated from high school, I had grand plans for my career. I was always a planner. I was a big dreamer. I was going to conquer the world. I went away to college. I went to the university of South Dakota, which was about four and a half hours from home. And I loved it. I felt some peace with being out from under his thumb, but it was never too far away from me.
What I had been through because I was. dealing with low self-esteem myself at that point, because when you're never believed in, and you're always cut down, you don't feel you're worthy, but my desire to succeed was always stronger. I got my degree. I started building my career.
I moved to California when I got a job offer that was 36 years ago. but my dad was always in my life the whole time. He was interested in his children to a degree. And I probably saw him more than my brother and sister who lived near him, probably just because I lived in California and he liked to get away from the cold weather
And during those really busy years of education and building a career and getting married and having kids, I put all of that stuff about my dad on the back burner. It was still there, but I did not have time. To dissect what the heck happened? You know, why, why, why was I treated this way? Why and so on, I married a wonderful man that made me realize, that, wow, maybe it isn't me, maybe, maybe I am okay.
Angela: [00:23:27] so you really up until the point of getting married still saw it. I'm not okay. I'm not good enough. I'll never be good enough. You're successful in your career still. I'm not good enough. Okay. Now. Okay. I have a really odd question for you. Do you think you ever, you tried or attempted to use some of the same tools because you had grown up with them with those habits from your father.
Do you think you've ever tried them out to see what they were like? I know that's kind of an odd and sensitive question.
Cammie: [00:24:05] No, but I understand what you're saying too. I think for a while there, I had somewhat of a. A hair trigger temper, maybe , you know, especially dealing with my own son when he was little and he would listen. but something would stop me cold in my tracks when I would start to behave that way.
Cause it reminded me, it's like, Oh my gosh, this is how my dad would respond to a situation. So I was very aware of that and I was very committed. To not doing the same thing with my own children.
Angela: [00:24:42] so what would happen is when you're talking to your kids or you're starting in on that behavior, that same feeling would come up that you had when dad would do that to you and then that would be like your red flag to say no. Okay.
Cammie: [00:24:59] Yeah. You do bring this stuff with you?
Angela: [00:25:01] Was that scary?
Cammie: [00:25:03] Oh, yeah, because having my own children, that was like my second chance to get it right. You know, it's like, okay. I went through all of this. I want to give my children a better life. I want them to have good, healthy self esteem and know that no matter what my mom will be there for me. So it was important for me to break the cycle.
Angela: [00:25:26] So it sounds like you put it on the back burner, you graduate high school, you go away to college, you get married, you don't really know what that point, that that's what the label was as far as narcissism or you do?
Cammie: [00:25:38] I did not know that my dad was a narcissist until later in life.
Angela: [00:25:43] okay. So you have kids and you start noticing those feelings come up and you're like, wow, I definitely don't want to behave like this. So when did you start realizing maybe there's something to look for, maybe. There's a label or something that will help me understand what went on with dad.
Cammie: [00:26:03] I don't have a defining moment on exactly when that happened, but I think that, Oprah may have started talking about narcissism on her show and other talk show hosts brought light to the illness and it is an illness, the illness of narcissism and. It took a while to understand that, because remember, I had been told for 40 years of my life that my dad was a genius.
he was a person better than most. And even though I knew he was not a good person, I thought he wasn't a good person because I was a disappointment. I didn't see that he was wrong. I was wrong because I had been told. My whole life. What an exceptional man. My dad was, I was told that he had this amazingly high IQ, all of these attributes that well, if he had all these attributes and he was such a wonderful person, clearly the problem lies in me.
Angela: [00:27:07] that's a lot of responsibility.
Cammie: [00:27:09] Well, you don't know it at the time. it's just your reality. you don't know that's just your life. and I actually would think that, everybody had parents like that, you think you're all alone and things like this. I think there's a lesson in that too. People don't talk about these things that are embarrassing to them.
and I don't know why it should be embarrassing either. Angela, when you think about it, that tells me that I'm still blaming myself when embarrassed about it somehow. It's my fault.
you just feel that since the parent tells you what a great person they are and how exceptional they are clearly, the problem is not them, it's you,
Angela: [00:27:51] Yeah.
Cammie: [00:27:52] And then we don't talk about it. And we don't share this with people because we're embarrassed. We're embarrassed that we're such a disappointment which is warped.
Angela: [00:28:02] You were saying, I think we should still talk, we need to talk about this and maybe I'm still taking it a little personally because I'm still using the word embarrassed. When I talk about narcissism and my father.
Cammie: [00:28:18] Yeah
Angela: [00:28:19] and it is, I think that is, an interesting place to be.
Cammie: [00:28:24] Right. but the good news is, that we can overcome this. and part of it is, and accepting what you can't change. We can't go back. We can't fix that. We can't fix the damaged person either. We just can't and it's not even our responsibility. Do you think it is?
Angela: [00:28:45] no, there's, it's not possible because we're all a little bit damaged in some way. one of my friends said to me a long time ago, no child escapes, childhood unscathed. So. If I go from there, no child escaped childhood unscathed to adults because we all grow up. Then we all must be damaged in some way.
Cammie: [00:29:15] Right.
Angela: [00:29:16] And I think it's in that, that, that we find our common humanity and that we're all really very similar and we're all hurting in some way.
Cammie: [00:29:26] I agree. We don't know what the person next to us has lived through, been through the pain they're carrying with them, but we're all human. we all have histories. We all have unique experiences and unfortunately not all of them are great and rainbows and unicorns. There is a lot of warthogs and bumps in the road and things we need to get through.
Angela: [00:29:50] Yeah. And people don't walk around wearing their damage. They don't walk around with signs on them that say, These are, this is where I hurt and this is how I hurt. And in fact, sometimes I think, it's hard to even think about walking around like that even for myself, because that opens me up to all this judgment from other people or at least what I think they're going to judge me as right.
Cammie: [00:30:25] Well, that's interesting. Do people judge us by our experiences in life. Shouldn't they?
Angela: [00:30:32] that's a great question. I'm not certain I ever judged you by your experiences?
I think our relationship began because we enjoyed being around each other and we found, not a commonality, but, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?
Cammie: [00:30:53] Well, there was an immediate kinship, based on, and here's the one that we scratch our heads and go, well, what was it based on? I think our souls just know our souls connect on a level that we can't logically. Quite articulate in words, you're just attracted to some people and the fit is immediate and it works.
I mean, the minute I met you, I knew that you were somebody I liked a great deal and wanted to get to know and to spend time with. And then there's other people that I go, Oh, I don't know if I want to get to know them, but once you do, you're fine with them. But I think there's that other type of kinship of the soul. That's just beyond explanation. It's just there.
Angela: [00:31:37] Yeah, I think that you're, that I'm really lucky to have you in my life and to know, because what the listeners don't know yet is that we had been friends more than 10 years ago, and many things have changed. I mean, I think. Maybe it was, I think I had just had Katelyn so 16
Cammie: [00:31:56] You had a baby. Yes.
Angela: [00:32:00] and we lost touch. And when I called you, I thought, I'm looking at my phone and I'm thinking, okay, my phone number is still the same. Hers might still be two and I dial the phone and I don't know, get through hi Cammie. This is, and you're like, ah, Angela
Cammie: [00:32:20] Yeah. That's exactly how I felt. I was so happy. well, isn't that something, when you think about it. We need to pick up the phone more often. there's people out there that we've loved and cared about that are in our past, that life gets in the way, but reach out and I'm so glad you did.
Angela: [00:32:38] yeah, yeah. I am so glad I did too. Back to topic real quick. I just really want to understand. You know, it took you decades and I'm assuming a lot of education, probably most likely, therapy. What was that like as you were I don't know if I want to say analyzing, but investigating what happened and trying to understand, how you became who you are now and maybe how some of those things could benefit you.
Cammie: [00:33:15] I started reading a lot of books on narcissism, and they all had the common thread of the person who is a narcissist is a damaged person that has been greatly hurt. And, it took a long time to understand how can my father, who was a genius at a higher IQ guy and, you know, how could he be so damaged?
so it took a lot of soul searching for me without getting any real answers. I don't have anybody left that I can call and say what happened to my dad when he was a little boy, so that will always be a mystery. I'll never know exactly what happened to hurt him so deeply. I have some theories, some ideas, but as far as theories and ideas go, I'm usually always wrong on those.
So I'll just let that go. Right. and so a lot of education, the internet has been extremely helpful. I was shocked when my father passed away that my pain seemed more intense. for a while there, I thought it should just go away because he's not here anymore. But I was feeling, I was really disappointed that I had my childhood stolen from me.
Again, here I was living in the past and I just couldn't let it go. So two years ago, I think it was, I decided to try in-person one-on-one therapy. That was the first time of my life. I had done that, where I'd actually went to talk to the psychologist and I did that for about six months and, she, gave me the tools.
I thought I could go there and she could fix me. And that's not how therapy works. I learned they don't fix you, but they give you the tools so you can fix yourself. And that was helpful. And then the most surprising, place where I found help was, on an online forum called Quora. Are you familiar with Quora?
Angela: [00:35:14] I've heard of it. I haven't been on it.
Cammie: [00:35:16] So on Quora, people ask random questions about anything and everything you can imagine, and anybody can answer them.
And there's just tons and tons of threads on every aspect of narcissism you can imagine. And what has been so healing for me in these narcissism forums on Quora, it's not written from the perspective of professional therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists. It's real life experiences of people who have lived through this. And for some reason, I don't know if it's misery loves company, but it definitely showed me that I'm not alone in this. I'm not the only one that went through this and it's not me. That it was a bad person. This is just how narcissists treat people. it was amazing how similar my experiences are with all these other people that had a narcissistic parent, and that, that was healing for me.
And now I'm at a point to where , I'm not living in the past. I forgive my dad. I think he did the best he could do. I really do. it's too bad. It turned out the way it did really too bad, but that's life, right? We don't live in a fairy tale. This is how it is. So I'm just trying to live my best life now.
I've had a great career. We're still doing interesting things. We're traveling, we've got grandkids. I'm focusing on the here and now in the future. And, I feel I can do that now.
Angela: [00:36:49] so you went, to a psychologist who gave you tools and you said you didn't heal. And I think what , I'm hearing that you, because you couldn't get fixed. So what I think I'm hearing in that is that there is a chance that. You're going to come across those feelings again, that something's going to come up or there's going to be an experience and you might have to work through those again.
And so having those tools, that's helpful.
Cammie: [00:37:19] Absolutely. And it does happen. It happens in the most surprising places. We were on a cruise a couple years ago on it. We were in, Athens, Greece, and we were standing in line waiting to get some tickets. And there was a couple behind us. And the husband started berating his wife, almost exactly how my dad would do it to my mother or to me.
And it was like PTSD. It was like getting going right back to 1972, and I'm thinking, wow, it doesn't completely go away, just because I say that I'm better and I'm moving forward, not looking back. this will always be a part of who I am. it will come up whether I like it or not, you know, it's just realizing that, okay.
Um, take a deep breath and say a prayer for this woman who's hurting right now. Cause I wanted to reach out to her and say, you don't have to with this. but that would not have been the place to do that.
Angela: [00:38:22] And it did break up. So it, so what you had said was you don't have to put up with this to the woman, who was experiencing this beer reading from her narcissistic husband.
Cammie: [00:38:32] I think she was horrifically embarrassed, which I could totally relate to because he was doing it to her in public, in front of all these people.
Angela: [00:38:41] My heart's sinking right now. And it's two years ago in an experience that you had. And I think that's part of empathy, right? that inside of me right now, just hearing that story, I'm sad that it happened in the first place and . I think you said you had to take a deep breath. I mean, what came up for you in that moment?
Cammie: [00:39:06] It was just all of that. It's hard to describe exactly what it is, but it's this emotion that's makes you sick to your stomach. , it's so familiar, it's part of who I am. That was mom. That was me. That was my life. and just because I haven't personally experienced it in a while, it was like I was right back in it. When this man was berating, his wife.
Angela: [00:39:33] so were you triggered and did it impact you for more than that moment? And did you really have to kind of go through in your mind? What steps do I need to take to work through this? And I've, you've been triggered right.
Cammie: [00:39:50] I was surprised that I had such a primal. Feeling come over me when it happens, I don't know this person, I don't know these people, but yet it was like it was happening to me. but, we were on a cruise and then I just shook it off and we went and did our next thing.
Angela: [00:40:06] did you literally shake your body? Well, you know, sometimes like before, cause you do voiceovers, I'm sure like sometimes you literally have to wiggle out some of the, those nerves. I mean, was it this, it was the same type of thing you just had to wiggle it out and move on.
Cammie: [00:40:25] It was, I have to be honest. Part of me was like, well, thank God that wasn't me. even though I felt tremendous empathy for the woman, it was like, Oh, you ask yourself if he's this awful to her in public, what is it like when they're in private?
Angela: [00:40:42] well, do you think your mom realized that your dad was a narcissist?
Cammie: [00:40:47] I don't think so. Because, Oh, I spent so much time crying on her shoulder and saying, why is he like this to me? Why? And my mother always said, it's like, he just doesn't know how to show emotion. he doesn't know how to show his love, but he loves you so much. Your dad works so hard and he loves you so much and he gives you everything.
He can. Which is like blaming me too. It's like, look at everything he does for you. he just doesn't know how to show love, but as a kid you're thinking, but the, he knows how to show displeasure
So that was hard, but my mom was really struggling. She was raised by wonderful kind, gentle parents, my grandpa and grandma, they were just, so I think she just didn't know what to think.
What to do and again, she did the best she could do.
Angela: [00:41:44] Yeah. Well, the reason I was asking that question is because I'm thinking of the women on the cruise ship, and I'm even wondering if. If she doesn't and you had said, let me just backtrack. You had said, I didn't, you didn't believe in yourself, growing up and you didn't, you knew who dad was, and I'm wondering from a relationship perspective, how that is with maybe.
She had just I'm betting. It's not always so blatant, right. That there's these little ticks or stories or this or that. And before, you know, it, you're in a relationship with a narcissist because you believe everything that they say.
Cammie: [00:42:32] Right.
Angela: [00:42:33] I think that's really hard to get away from, because if I had no value or I believed I had no value and this other person is important, and they're up on a pedestal and I think I have to have them in order to be okay, then walking away would be devastating. And a huge injury and super scary.
and I'm not sure if it would be harder as a wife or a child. Growing up because it, as a child growing up, I would think there's this natural thing. I think that's built into growing up where we have to, it's like an instinct, right? We have to break free from our parents, whereas with a marriage or a relationship you're supposed to go in it and stay.
Cammie: [00:43:30] Right.
Angela: [00:43:32] And I wonder . How that impacts things.
Cammie: [00:43:35] I'm in very good points. You're bringing up Angela. I definitely think it was much worse for my mother than for me,
Angela: [00:43:42] I wish she could have left.
Cammie: [00:43:44] right. Yeah.
Angela: [00:43:45] and I wonder what that would've done for you
Cammie: [00:43:49] Yeah. I know. We'll never know.
Angela: [00:43:52] I'm not sure worse, maybe just different, right? And at the same time, I mean, it's hard for both. I'm just, I've got all these great questions I want to ask that are just on the tip of my tongue and I cannot put them into words right now.
Cammie: [00:44:10] I know. Oh, I know if my mother was still alive because it was after she passed away that. That's when I started making inroads into who my dad really was, my mother and I never had a conversation on the fact that dad was a narcissist. We just never talked about that. Well, it never crossed my mind until years later, but I always wonder, would that have helped my mother, if she would have known that, I don't know.
I don't know.
Angela: [00:44:42] That's a great question. Yeah. I, I don't know either, because I think it would be extremely hard to walk away. And I'm wondering, did they stay married and did she pass away and they were still married
Cammie: [00:44:56] Yes.
Angela: [00:44:57] and then he remarried later, it sounded like.
Cammie: [00:45:01] yeah. the most, the saddest part of the story of my mom and dad was, Well, it was years and years and years ago. my mom had called me and my dad had been hunting over the weekend and he was gone and she had gotten together with a girlfriend and they spent the day doing girlfriend things.
And my mom said, well, we got to talking. And my friend said that. She didn't like the way dad treated me. And, she goes, you know what? That made me feel really strong that I could change things. So I'm going to tell dad when he gets back from hunting, that, we're going to go to therapy and that I'm not going to accept.
No, he has to go with me because life can be better than this. And she sounded strong and excited and happy. Well, two days later she fell, on an icy, piece of concrete and hit her head. And, she had suffered a traumatic brain injury and her life was never the same after that. So she had plans to change her life, to make it better.
And that's what happened.
Angela: [00:46:09] Oh, I think that just goes to show that sometimes it's just not in the cards for us, that there's. No country troll. I had this argument years and years ago with a friend of mine about control. And it makes me laugh until this day because he's like, what are you talking about? Control does not exist.
And I'm like, it totally exists. I can control what my behavior is. I can control how I talk to people. He's like, if you can't control how the synopsis fire in your brain, then you have no control.
Cammie: [00:46:49] That's good.
Angela: [00:46:51] And finally I gave into it and I'll have to tell you I was working in, I think it was in a medical office at the time. It was nurses. And mind you, I think nurses are fabulous at trying to control things. and it, because, they've got to make it good for the patient and they've got to make a good for the doctor and, they're very great middle managers and I'll never forget the response from these nurses watching this conversation on Facebook.
And they're just like, yeah, we don't like this guy. Yeah.
Cammie: [00:47:24] Oh, that's funny.
Angela: [00:47:27] Um, yeah. I, digress in that story, but I just, You know, sometimes part of it's the journey
Cammie: [00:47:37] Yeah.
Angela: [00:47:39] and how do you, how do we learn to just enjoy the journey and, and not be like, well, as soon as I get this fixed, as soon as I leave this relationship, as soon as this happens, then this, like, what do you do in your life?
And I'm sure you you're nodding and you're saying, right, like you've had that conversation with yourself before. What did you do? Or have you been able to shift out of that?
Cammie: [00:48:06] Well, it's something you work on every day, you know? you bring your baggage with you, even though you lighten the load as he go, it's still part of who you are. I'm cognizant of things. but I'm also, I'm glad for the journey for what it's taught me. perhaps there's been lessons in this that I'm not even fully aware of at this point, how it's shaped me as adult and adult, how it's, helped me in relationships with other people.
I don't know everyone has a different journey, but we just have to find our purpose in our journey and accepted for what it is, and be kind to ourselves. it's easy to beat ourselves up and, blame ourselves for things that have happened in our lives. If only I would've done this, if only I would have been smarter and that, that, and that serves no purpose in moving forward.
and all it does is make us feel worse about ourselves. I think we all need to be kinder to ourselves.
Angela: [00:49:07] when you were saying that I was thinking of, how a two-year-old when they fall or what, or however old 18 months, depending, you know how whenever the child starts to walk, depending on the child could be anywhere between less than a year and two, right or more, when they fall it doesn't, it's not helpful to run over and be like, you're sick, bad and wrong.
You're horrible. You fell. Get your butt up and, and do this or else. what is helpful is walking calmly over there, loving the child and saying, I know you can do this. And what happens when that inner voice shifts from you're sick bad and wrong. You did that horribly to, Ooh. Yeah, that hurt. And I know you can do this.
Cammie: [00:49:59] very nice.
It's empowering them from a young age. I think that's the best gift we can give a person, empower them because we have to do this on our own. We can't rely on somebody to do it for us.
Angela: [00:50:16] no, and I think also changing that inner dialogue to yeah, that was hard. And I know you can do this. Let's go, you know, so it sounds like you've had this amazing transformation of learning who you were throughout your life, and it never really stopped
Cammie: [00:50:37] Right
Angela: [00:50:38] and I'm thinking even today, or this last week, maybe you were surprised about something in your life that you learned about yourself.
Cammie: [00:50:51] Hmm, probably.
Angela: [00:50:53] You think so? I don't know. I'm wondering.
Cammie: [00:50:57] I mean, there's always something I learned, my husband and I are self-employed, so we learn something all the time in our businesses, especially running them during pandemics. we have grown children that, never cease to amaze us with how they are still growing as people and our wonderful members of society.
And then we've got our grandchildren that are such an unexpected. He's a joy, I've learned more from my grandkids than from anybody because they're so new, they're so new and they're so open-minded, and they're so loving and accepting and, just the most amazing joy in life has come from those little ones.
Angela: [00:51:36] how often do you find yourself more curious? Because you get to be around the grandkids and watch them.
Cammie: [00:51:43] Oh, yeah. Every little thing is a big thing with grandkids, well look at this little rock I found out in the backyard, it looks like a butterfly grandma, and it's like, you're right. It does. And I love that type of childlike wonder. I think we can all learn something from that. We take ourselves too seriously.
I think a lot of the time
Angela: [00:52:09] Yeah, it's hard to stay curious about myself though. It's a lot easier to go to those negative thoughts and the snap judgements. I don't know about you.
Cammie: [00:52:19] that's true. I think we're always our own hardest critic. Yeah.
Angela: [00:52:23] it sounds like you've mostly healed from dad and you found joy in having a family and that. Maybe just, maybe you didn't pass along all the negative traits that you got to experience because you were able to feel them
Cammie: [00:52:43] I would hope that that's how it really is. I think so. I, it has been really important for me to be a kind loving person and open-minded and someone who listens a lot asks a lot of questions. yeah, I I'm pretty happy with how my life has turned out. I feel blessed.
Angela: [00:53:10] I'm glad I feel blessed that I got to interview you today.
Cammie: [00:53:16] Well, it's been fun.
Angela: [00:53:17] It has been fun. It's definitely different interview in a friend.
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. We've really enjoyed talking to Cammie about how she was able to find joy and build a happy family, found support groups and never gave up on being the best parent she could be. We especially liked when she spoke with an abundance of love for her father, in that he did the best he could with the tools he had.
To unite with other damaged people. Connect with us on Facebook look for @damagedparents. This podcast was sponsored in part by Arches. Audio will be here next week. Still relatively damaged. See you then.
