Episode 74: Becoming Toxic Person Proof
Sarah K. Ramsey
Sarah K Ramsey is a toxic relationship specialist. She's also the host of the globally acclaimed Toxic Person Proof podcast and best selling author of Toxic Person Proof: Clear the Confusion and Learn to Trust Yourself. She helps the world most amazing women remember how amazing they are after experiencing pain and confusion from a parent, family member, friend, coworker or romantic partner. She helps people get past the past and get real about what's going on in the present and get serious about creating an amazing future.
Social Media/Contact Information
Website: Sarah K Ramsey
Podcast Transcript:
Damaged Parents: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents. We're abused toxic attracting scared people come to learn maybe just maybe we're all a little bit damaged.
Someone once told me it's safe to assume 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.
Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than. Like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged. And that's what we're here to talk about. In my ongoing investigation of the damage self, I want to better understand how others view their own challenges.
Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience? My hero is the damaged person. The one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side, whole.
Those who stared directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose. These are the people who inspire me to be more fully me. Not in spite of my trials, but because of them. Let's hear from another hero. Today's topic includes sensitive material, which may not be appropriate for children. This podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here were strictly those of the person who gave them.
Today, we're going to talk with Sarah K. Ramsey. She has many roles in her life, daughter, wife, author of becoming toxic person proof and more. We'll talk about how her father was a pasture, which led her to. We'll talk about how her father was a pastor which led her to a belief that other people always had more wisdom or answers than she did and how she found health and healing let's talk
Welcome to Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. Today, we have Sarah Ramsey with us author of Becoming Toxic Person Proof. And I want to know all about that, but before we get into that, I've got to say, hello.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:02:22] Nice to be here.
Damaged Parents: [00:02:25] I'm so glad you're here. When you said the title of your book, I'm thinking man, I need that in my life. And how helpful would that have been growing up if you will, and I'm thinking there's a struggle behind all of this.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:02:38] Yeah, of course. Yes. And it's always a, it's always a joke when people say, oh, is there like a toxic relationship in your life? And I'm like, you're giving me a lot of credit to assume there was just one, right. Isn't that nice of you. Yeah. So my dad was not toxic, but he was a pastor.
So he was the voice of God. In the community, right. Which is a whole really odd way of growing up. And he's very um, he's a great man. We have a great relationship. He's not toxic. However, that experience of like, there is a voice and it is like the male and it is in my life. Right. And they become the voice of your life.
Uh, Played out in a lot of subsequent relationships after that.
Damaged Parents: [00:03:22] I really love that you pointed that out because
there's, it's how sometimes we take on those messages, I think is what I'm hearing you say that it wasn't necessarily him. It was how you interpreted that and carried it forward in your life is what I'm thinking. You're alluding to.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:03:39] Well, yeah, because, so in a healthy adult relationship, okay. It's two people who are pretty evenly paired. Right. It's fate you and I like we take turns, you get to talk, I get to talk, you get things. I get things and healthy friendships and healthy, romantic partnerships. It is this give and take of taking turns.
Okay. a parent relationship it's like one person is in control and dominant and all that kind of stuff, which is really age appropriate at four. Okay. But if you don't ever make the switch at 40, you're still finding people who are powering over you, who are the voice of your life, who know exactly what you should be doing and are happy to.
tell you what you should be doing.
Damaged Parents: [00:04:24] right. So it would have having. A parent as the voice and being the voice of God, which is not the same, but it sounds to me like you really internalize that. So then maybe you were looking for people to be that voice throughout your life.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:04:42] Well, yeah my dad was very well-respected and still is, and I respect him. So that voice for the most part, he wasn't perfect and we, none of us are, but he was, that was a pretty safe voice for me. Right. So I learned that the voice was safe. It was safe to listen to other people. It was safe to, I don't really have to form my own opinions.
I can just ask other people what they think and they'll be the voice.
Damaged Parents: [00:05:07] got it.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:05:08] But other people aren't safe.
Damaged Parents: [00:05:10] so I guess in some ways you weren't taking responsibility for your choices, you were passing them off to other people.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:05:16] I definitely didn't see it that way at the time, but I was uncomfortable with the process of decision-making. Right. What should I do? And girls do that all the time. I remember calling my friend, I was in my thirties and calling my friend and saying, Hey, do you think I should go buy makeup today or go exercise? Why would I ask her that? But I asked her that, but part of that is female culture and language. Like we do that, do you think I should get salad for lunch or chicken? Well, who cares? It's not their body. Like, why are you asking other people what you should get to eat?
Damaged Parents: [00:05:48] Right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:05:49] No. And when something about lunch, or should I get makeup an exercise?
It's not that big of a deal, but those decision making muscles, when it comes to careers, having children who to marry how to break off toxic relationships like those, if those decision-making muscles are not being strengthened right.
What, outfit to wear what pair of jeans look good on you.
Damaged Parents: [00:06:13] Is it more of the internal being confident that your decision is the best decision or maybe in the toxic situation? The opposite would be true. Maybe the voice inside the person head would be, I'm not, I don't make good decisions. I need someone else to tell me how to make a decision.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:06:34] And, a part of it is the voice knows you better than, you know yourself.
Damaged Parents: [00:06:39] I don't understand what you mean by the voice knows me better than I know myself.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:06:43] Yeah. Okay. As kids, right? So you're saying, oh mom, I'm really hungry. No, you're not hungry. You're just tired. Okay. So that mother told the child, you, you don't understand what's happening in your own body. Me as the all-powerful mother knows what's best, mama knows best.
Damaged Parents: [00:07:01] Right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:07:02] And that's super problematic when someone's 30.
I really think I'm want to have this job, or I would be good at this and different voices, a boyfriend, a husband, a, a mother still, these people in your life are going, gosh, no, you shouldn't do that. You should do this career. You should be friends with this person. You should be this kind of parent.
And the assumption is they know more about you, then you know about you.
Damaged Parents: [00:07:26] Right. And that they have the best answer for me, even though they aren't me.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:07:33] Yes. Yes. And what's sad is so much of the conversation around that process is kind of switched over to this very almost like aggressive side of like I'm a grown ass woman. I can do what I want. Right. It's like, that's the counter voice to that. And it becomes almost like this, like bratty teenager, again, you see what I'm saying?
It's like, I don't have to listen to you. right.
As an adult
Damaged Parents: [00:07:57] So you're saying as an adult, when someone figures it out, then they go kind of to the opposite end of the spectrum.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:08:02] quite often. Yes. Yes. Like I'm a grownup. You can't tell me what to do. And it's like, but even that energy sounds immature. Like if you're saying. That energy of like, you can't tell me what to do. I'm not going to do that, but it sounds like a teenager talking. Right, an adult, well, thanks for your opinion that, I may, I may look over that.
Damaged Parents: [00:08:25] Right, but it doesn't have to be true. I mean, they can give their opinion and their opinion. I don't have to take that on as my own. I can still choose to do something else and then be responsible for that choice because I'm betting that person's going to call me on it. Because I could see that totally spiraling right now, just thinking about it in my head.
And then I make a choice if I'm not toxic person proof. And then there's the shame that comes with, well, I didn't make the choice they wanted me to make. So how do you transition through that? Gosh, this is just fascinating to put it from this perspective.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:09:05] Thank you. Thank you. That's what I try to do. People go, oh gosh. So you kind of see that look on your face whenever I do interviews they're like, oh, I never thought. Yeah, that's my goal. I'm doing my job. Good. Do you want people to think about this in a different way? Cause when you think about toxic relationships, it's like abuse
like people only think about it in terms of abuse or especially like romantic partner abuse. And it's so much broader than that. If that's the only conversation it's like, we're only talking about cancer at stage four.
Damaged Parents: [00:09:35] Right. So what you're saying though, what I heard. In what you didn't say was that these toxic relationships don't just happen in abusive marriages or relationships they happen. And I want to just widen relationship to include any relationship, because I think when I hear it in the context of toxic, I always think of couples.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:09:59] Yes. So in my book, I called it a toxic person encounter. And I very specifically wanted to talk about a toxic person encounter because I've had people devastated by faith communities. You have a think about how these cult leaders get people to, drink poison and all die. That's a toxic relationship, Right.
Those manipulative skills are not that different than what a manipulative mother is doing to control her children, adult children. It's not any different it's brainwashing. It's getting them to trust the voice after the cult leader of the mother of the boss, of the husband, of the wife, rather than their inner voice.
Damaged Parents: [00:10:38] Okay. So give us an example because I'm thinking it might not be super obvious in how you're talking about it. So if you could give us an example of a manipulative scenario and then give us an example of the opposite , of what, listening to that inner voice and being true to yourself, I guess, would be the best way for me to say that.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:10:59] Okay. So I'll, I'll talk about becoming a full-time life coach. Okay. I guarantee you. When I went to my family, friends and family, and I kind of said, I'm going to be a full-time life coach. They're like, Hmm. That's like not a real job, Sarah. Like, that's going to be, like, that's saying, I'm going to be a professional athlete.
I'm going to be, there are a lot of coaches and not a lot of full-time successful coaches. There's just. It's just not like when you kind of started peaking man behind the curtain, it's like a lot of times it's like a side gig or side hustle, which is nothing wrong with that, you know, but it's, different, right?
Until I left a cushy government job. Right. Very comfortable, very stable, very whatever to do this. And I said, I think I'm gonna change the world. I'm going to be a life coach. I'm going to write a book I'm going to this. And people are like, Hmm. But, I mean, you can do that. Just kind of do it like on your own time.
Right. You don't have to, you know, it would make sense for you to leave this position cause you're already here. So why would you, you know, why would you put your children at risk? Why would you put your finances at risk? Why would you take all those chances? You should just stay where you are.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:00] right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:12:00] Okay. That's a very subtle piece that probably all of us have experienced.
Right. Now there can be a really extreme version of that.
which I'm also happy to. Discuss if it's very subtle. right.
But it's saying, Yeah.
I, I hear you saying this is what you think your purpose in life is, but probably not. I would listen to me instead.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:19] Oh, okay.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:12:21] Do you
Damaged Parents: [00:12:22] That's yeah. And it sounds like they care and want. What's best. And yet they're not allowing you room to be you.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:12:33] And maybe that is best in their context. If they are not risk takers, if they have been in the same situation for 30 years, if they aren't people who take a chance or believe in themselves, maybe they are giving you.
advice that is caring within the context of their perspective.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:52] Right because we don't get to control. Okay. I think I hear what you're saying. It's like, they can still love you and because they are who they are, they can give you advice that is not in alignment with who you are from a very loving perspective.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:13:09] Yeah. Yeah. And that's obviously like the nicest version of talking you out of yourself. Right. Like, we'll go a little bit broader on the spectrum and you have a parent who okay.
This is I think I'm going to be, we'll say a writer, and it's like, well, you're not even that good at writing.
Like why would you think you were that good at that? Right. So that's a lot more overt. Right. And am I, why would you, why would you go away? Why would you move? Don't you don't, your job is to take care of me. Don't, you're supposed to be loyal to family. Don't, you're not supposed to leave. Right,
That's much more overt. It's a little easier to see, but not as, not when you're in it.
Damaged Parents: [00:13:47] right,
right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:13:49] Little, a little more on the spectrum. What kind of daughter disrespects her mother in such a way that she thinks she can just pick up and leave anytime she wants. right, That's the more aggressive, but if that's all we're looking at is that, and then even more aggressive, like slap you across the face.
How dare you leave me. right.
But only talking about slap across the face. How dare you leave me? Oh, that's toxic. But that there's so many seeds of teaching you. How to mistrust yourself.
Damaged Parents: [00:14:17] Yeah. Even as a parent, I mean, in what, in how society, the perception of how a parent is seen in their children, if you will, and that the children are not seen as individuals, but as a product of that parent, And then there's the judgment that comes back. I mean, you just really tied that together for me in my mind that then how would a parent not want to say no, you absolutely can not be who you are meant to be because you're supposed to be this.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:14:48] Times as you're listening. Cause I'm trying to think, like, if I was you're a good listener, like what would be kind of like the fight in my head. And we think like, well my son, he's just saying, I just want to play video games, dad, I don't want to do my homework. Like, why don't you just, let me be me.
That is the angry teenager version. Like we talked about the angry teenager as an adult, but that immaturity, oh, just let me be me. Like, oh, just, you don't even know me. I'm going to be a professional gamer, which all kinds of, Kids think professional gamers. That is not what I'm talking about is uh, is that, that kind of immature, like attitude that I want people to bring into this conversation, it's subtle, but it's like, okay, I hear you.
Thanks for your opinion. And this is who I'm going to beat. This is my purpose. And you talked about it being confident earlier, and there's a lot of confidence and risk associated with. This is who I'm going to be. This is what I'm going to do. This is who I am. And not letting people talk you out of that ton of confidence associated with that.
Damaged Parents: [00:15:44] And I think vulnerability too. Am I
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:15:46] Yes. Yes. People hated my book. They may have hated my book. And this is funny. I have like 83 reviews. I think there's like. They're all like five stars. And then one person said like, well, there's, there were parts that were repetitive and still gave me a four star. And of course in my mind, like, that's the review I'm like looking at like, everyone else is like, this is the best thing I've ever read.
This has changed my life. This is not my, just for all my children on B. And it's like that one. I was like, oh, repetitive. Well, because people struggling with cognitive dissonance and it's really hard to repeat. And I had to say some different ways and that was very much on purpose. You know, I started kind of in my head with that argument.
Finally, I just had to say. okay?
But that's what our brains do. We focus on that one piece of risk? Oh, they didn't like me. They didn't, they didn't like it, and there's huge vulnerability in putting yourself out there, whether it be through a book, a podcast, a, a new career, a new relationship.
There's huge vulnerability associated with that.
Damaged Parents: [00:16:42] Yeah. And so let's say we've got a listener coming in and they've heard what we've been talking about. How do you start shifting. To recognizing, I don't know if I want to call it, checking in with yourself too, to see what you want. And I'm guessing, I mean, just from my own perspective, I'm thinking at the beginning of that process, it's probably very uncomfortable.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:17:06] Oh, gosh. It is easier to recognize and some of the more extreme, so I'm going to talk about gaslighting. Okay. Which is, say that you had a glass of water right there. And I kind of knocked the glass of water off and you say whoa, why'd you do that? I said, what do you mean? Why did I do that?
You knocked it off. why are you trying to blame it on me, what are you trying to do? Right. But some word extreme is not that extreme. Many of us are dealing with those types of conversations every day, the coworker, what do you mean. I didn't say I was going to turn that in on time. Right? The parent or the sibling. What do you mean?
I didn't say I was going to take care of Thanksgiving this year. You were supposed to take care Thanksgiving, but you said you were going to no I didn't right.
Do you see, it's all about them talking you out of your own truth? Like your own is like, this is what my eyes see. This is what my ears here. This is what my body feels.
And you're telling me those are not Forms of truth. For me, my eyes seem wrong. My ears hear wrong. My body feels wrong and you're the voice or the voice is, oh, no, this is what you should see. This is what you should hear. This is what you should feel.
Damaged Parents: [00:18:09] Right. And if you're in that and you're used to hearing all of those voices, how do you even, first of all, Recognizing it is probably difficult. So how would someone recognize, especially if they can't hear themselves yet, do you see, do they have to get to a certain point? Where, what are we talking about there?
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:18:29] Kids, I'll say, what do your eyes see? What do your ears hear? Right. Okay. An adult trying to we we kind of manipulate our kids a lot
Damaged Parents: [00:18:40] Yeah.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:18:41] you don't really want to play baseball. Do you? You don't really want to do this. Do you? You don't really want to go home. Do you don't want, you want to go to grandma's house? Right. So we did that a lot as a society
Damaged Parents: [00:18:54] Yeah.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:18:55] and then other people do it to our kids. Right. So when, oh, you're not really upset. You're not really mad. Yeah.
He didn't really hurt you, but if you, as simple as what did my eyes see? What did my ears hear? What did my eyes see? What did my ears hear?
And asking those questions to your children? What did your body feel like around that person?
Damaged Parents: [00:19:17] Right. And I think when I hear you saying, what did I see and what did my ears hear is learning to listen to what people do is that, which is what your eyes see and not listen necessarily to what the words are.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:19:33] So I heard I had a coaching call this morning and this lady said, I'm the type of person who, I just love people for who they are. And I said, no, you don't. I want to be so clear. You don't, you love people for who you want them to be. Right? Because we are, is manipulating you, who they are is cheating on you, who they are is talking you out of yourself, who they are is actually being very mean to you and being ugly to you.
You love them for who you hope they are.
Damaged Parents: [00:20:01] Ooh, that's pretty good
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:20:03] Right. So it's that whole idea of falling in love with potential.
Damaged Parents: [00:20:07] potential. Hasn't gotten anyone anywhere. I don't think.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:20:10] And we see it. It's always, I used the example, like a school teacher and the kids are like everywhere in the class or whatever. And there's this one kid he's always like. Drawing dirty body parts on the little girl's papers and like smacking cans on the playground and doing all this stuff.
And the parents come in and they say, well, he, it's not that he's a bad kid. He's just probably around some other bad kids. Maybe you should move his seat. No, no, no, no. He is the bad kid. Like it's his name on the papers with the body parts? Like it's his name? It was his hand doing that, but it's not my kid.
And. I'm not trying to say every kid's like doomed and damage, but we're doing the same thing with 26 year olds and 36 year olds and 46 year olds and 56 year olds. Well, I mean, they had a hard childhood, so it gives them a pass. And Angela I doubt in your life, you think.
I've had a hard childhood. And so that gives me a pass to be mean to others.
Like I get to steal, I get to manipulate. I get to Gaslight. I get to blame others. I get to manage my image. I get to pretend I'm someone I'm not like that gives me a pass.
Damaged Parents: [00:21:15] Yeah, never has it ever given me a pass. Ever Sarah, I'm trying to think of that whole idea
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:21:23] But we give other people pass. It hurt people, hurt people. They didn't really mean it. They had a bad day at work.
Damaged Parents: [00:21:30] so that's supposed to justify them hurting me because they had a bad day.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:21:35] Yes, yes. We see this pattern of behavior. We, we hardly ever flipped. I mean, good people. I, I'm going to assume, I'm going to say you're not toxic. People we say, I can't imagine saying, you know what? I had a really hard day.
and I get to go home. I get to scream at my husband.
I get to break things. I get to do whatever I get to be as mean as I want. Like, that's like a crazy talk, like to fake. I get to go home today and I'm justified in treating my family badly because of something that happened at work.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:01] Right. The, you're really bringing up for me. you know, I have a pain disorder, which is deformed my hands. And even when my kids were young, I actually would stay more quiet because I couldn't figure out. Was it my frustration from my pain. And was that why I was angry or was it really that they did something that was inappropriate?
So I had to figure out and really think about what I was going to say and do.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:22:28] So I'm going to say if you were a toxic mother.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:32] Right. Okay.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:22:33] Don't you kids know how much pain I'm in. You shouldn't burden me with your fights. You shouldn't act that way because I'm in pain. So you should behave better to accommodate me.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:49] Right. Gosh, that would have been so much easier. I mean, at least from teaching you're laughing and Sarah, I love this, but it would have been because I would've had more control if you will. I don't think it would have led to healthier relationships, but. It would've made it way easier in the moment and they would have felt terrible and horrible.
I mean, I couldn't imagine the pain. I would be causing them emotionally just by
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:23:15] Yeah,
and that was my own kids. I do say having a really hard day. Sometimes mommies are sad too. Sometimes grownups are sad too. And yeah, there's, there was something this week that happened. And I apologize to my kids. I said, you know what? My emotions got too big for my body. Wasn't detrimental, but, but it was something else that my emotions got too big for my body.
And. I was really angry. And I said some things that.
I wish I had not said that healthy, right.
Like mommies or mommies in pain, that's creating empathy, but it's not creating guilt.
Damaged Parents: [00:23:48] right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:23:49] ripping blame where you get an excuse to behave badly. I was very angry about something in my own life that did kind of hesitate with my kids, but then I got angry and I was.
Angry. And then I apologize, not for being angry, but I said, you know what? My emotions got too big for my body and I want to handle that differently in the future. That's just healthy modeling. That's good modeling. Cause they're going to, their emotions are going to get too big for their body. Sometimes they're going to get angry they're kids sometimes.
Right. And I, think healthy parents. Apologize. It's good for healthy parents to apologize for things they actually did wrong, not apologize and hoping that your kids will tell you you're okay. Well, I'm so sorry. I'm not a good enough mother, I'm so sorry that's playing the victim right. Or never being wrong, but that healthy modeling of like, you know what, I wish I'd handled that differently.
I'm sorry.
Damaged Parents: [00:24:41] Yeah. And it's hard when your kids call you out on your own stuff too. I mean, for, to be humble enough, to hear, to recognize them as, as a human being a whole human being and that we're all on the same team and I'm not perfect. Because I already know they're not perfect. I mean, they don't remember. I learned that a long time ago, but then the idea that I have to, you have to hold this as a, especially as moms, I think you have to hold this perception of I've got it all together and my kids have it altogether.
And what happens when they don't, they don't appear to have it together and yet they're on their own journey also. And so it becomes very complex in. How we negotiate those relationships. And I think if we, like you're saying be vulnerable and honest, then, then it, it models for them how to be a healthy adult.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:25:39] In toxic parents consider their children an extension of themselves. Okay.
like an arm.
Damaged Parents: [00:25:47] Okay.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:25:48] So if I know you have some pain around your hands I was a piano major, so I have great like heart and empathy towards your hands and what that would mean in my own life. And I also had some carpal tunnel issues in college where I had to wear a brace, which has a, you know, a major practicing two hours a day.
Really yucky. And I was thought I was looking into surgery. But as I'm thinking about surgery, I don't ask my hand permission to see if it needs surgery.
Damaged Parents: [00:26:13] Right,
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:26:14] It's hurting. If I want to cut it open, I will.
Damaged Parents: [00:26:18] right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:26:18] Okay. So now let's think about how toxic parents view their children. Just like a hand. So if you are not acting like I want carpal tunnel, wrist or hand, if you're not going to go on what little five-year-old girl, if you're not, I think I of what, 15 year old boy I can cut you with my word and get you back in line.
Damaged Parents: [00:26:37] I think though it's a short term fix though.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:26:40] I mean, it's your children are not extensions of you. They're not products. Right. And toxic parents. It's like, well, I lie, neither of my children play piano. I wish they did. They don't, they don't, not here to, for me to relive. Whatever else I want to relive. Oh, I need him to be in piano recital.
Cause I was in piano recitals. Oh, they must like it because I like it. No, they are separate people from me. They are not extensions of me, separate humans from me, but toxic parents can't see that. And so then they just I'll be the voice. Right until you who you are. Don't listen to your internal dialogue that may tell you to move across the country or to get a different career, or to expand yourself in a different way here.
I'm the voice. You just be my arm. You be what I like you be. What makes me look good?
Damaged Parents: [00:27:31] Hmm. That's so hard. And even so my perception of what happens when. In a toxic environment, like where you see a child as an arm is there's this huge declaration of independence that happens in the rebelliousness, but maybe sometimes it doesn't, I guess, wow. That's actually, maybe I have a bias right there.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:27:57] They rebel against their parents and then recreated in their romantic relationships or recreate it in work environments. Right. So maybe, well, my dad's not and tell me what I'm going to do, but my boyfriend I'll bring it back to our man's relationships. At this point. I'll find the voice in my boyfriend and my, so I'm like, I'm not gonna listen to anybody, but they listen to their boyfriend.
Damaged Parents: [00:28:16] Which then it turns into the another toxic relationship, maybe way worse.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:28:22] Yes,
Damaged Parents: [00:28:23] Because it's not. Wow. Okay. So it sounds like it's super important to allow our children to have voice. And let's say maybe we didn't those children's or they're in their twenties and they're trying to figure out how to listen to themselves.
Because it's, I think it's really hard to be comfortable. And like you said, we were talking earlier confident and vulnerable at the same time in making those decisions. Trying to figure out the question here. I'm not sure I'm totally articulating that correctly.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:28:56] Something really interesting in a book called other people's houses and there's this character named Francis. Okay. And Francis, there was a situation in her own life and she said, gosh, I don't have time to worry about my problems. I've got to worry about everybody. Else's right. And I kind of laughed, but that's one of the things I really work with my clients on solving your problems first.
Because it is so tempting. Like when you're talking about like, oh, here's a 20 year old and I'm seeing them and it's like, if it's a 10 year old and there's some conversations, I know there's still your babies. I know that. I know that. I know that. I know. However, I see a lot of parents and it's like, oh man, I'm going to put my problems.
My problems are scary. So I want to solve my kid's problems.
Damaged Parents: [00:29:40] That's so much easier to solve someone else's problems than our own. Right.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:29:44] Well, and that's one of the things, the biggest, it's a very common phrase and it's one of the saddest phrase in our languages. I'm really good at giving advice, but I don't take my own. advice. And what would I say? Oh, so that, that is not that honest person. There's not an honest person. If I'm saying, yeah, you should eat healthy, you should do this.
You should do that. And I'm not, I'm not saying always eat healthy. Cause I know I just used that example, but you know, if there's a nutrition coach and they are saying you should eat salads and you see them out, like pumping a Snickers down their throat, Right.
There's some dishonesty to that. And our kids see that dishonesty.
Your problems, you really need to fix this. You really need to work on this. You really listen to this. You really need to put yourself out there. This you really need to be vulnerable here. Kids should take risks. Oh, but I'm 50. I'm not going
Damaged Parents: [00:30:33] Okay. So I think what I hear you saying is, as it, if we're looking at it from the parenting perspective, Solve my problems. First, the kids are
capable, lead bikes in there. They're capable to some extent,
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:30:45] I also get frustrated when in a toxic situation, people are not setting boundaries in their own life. And then they say things like, well, my 14 year old girl is stronger than me. That drives me. Insane. right?
It's like, okay, you're not strong enough to manage your problems, but you're sticking your 14 year old out there.
You're saying, oh, she's stronger than you. She has a better personality. She can handle, you know? and it's like, that is not leading by integrity.
Damaged Parents: [00:31:10] right. I think what I'm trying to get at, though. Okay. I see how you got there is that. I need, for instance, if it were me in my situation, I've got to
work on solving my own problems and supporting her in how she maybe wants to solve her problems and letting her come up with the ideas and in how those problems might be solved. And then if she's stuck asking her if she would like some ideas and not. Pushing it on her from it sounds like really hard to find a healthy balance as a parent, to allowing the child to be themselves and support them and not pushing my agenda on them.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:31:56] So leading by integrity, right? Gosh, I really want you to make healthy relationship decisions that are you modeling, healthy relationship decisions. Right. Well, well, but I mean, I really don't like this boyfriend. Well, do, does she, did your daughter like your boyfriend? Probably not. You know, Or maybe they do, and leading by example of.
Talking to your kids something I really have been putting off and not wanting to face is what's something I'm working on in my own life, oh well example of my kids, you know, like that situation last week. And it was just, it was a very, very triggering, like on my scale of triggering, it was like my absolute worst.
And just like, my emotions got too big for my body. And I said, you know what? My emotions got too big for my body, but I asked somebody for help. And I took a time out and I'm trying to take a deep breath and I'm sorry, I'm going to do better. Next time. The power that holds of me talking about how I'm solving my own problems versus Brady, you shouldn't hit your sister.
When you give, when your emotions get too big for your body, you need to ask for help. You need to take a time out and you need to, a deep breath. You should, you should. You should.
Damaged Parents: [00:33:06] Uh, It's the you, that's what I call the, you, you, you conversation.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:33:10] And in living it's within integrity, if you are, a better conversation. Gosh, remember when you got your, emotions got too big for your body and you were like, and you can use that language with 20 year olds like adults. Get that too. I know it sounds like kind of kid language, but like your emotions get too big for your body.
Everyone understands that. Right. And it's like, oh yeah.
I remember what happened to you. Yeah, that happened to me too. Here's how I handled it from a vulnerable place, which parents don't do. Here's how you should handle it.
right.
Perfect. And I don't have any problems and I had it all figured
Damaged Parents: [00:33:45] Yeah. Oh, I'm just remembering this email, a math teacher sent to one of my kids and it was the, you, you, you, and I'm thinking to myself, how I can't hear when someone is yelling at me, you, you, you and I'm feeling shamed and wrong is a person. How can I expect my child to hear when a teacher is speaking to her like that?
I can't. And furthermore, then at what point do I, how much do I expect that she's going to invest in that class at that point, if she feels shamed and humiliated because the teacher's unwilling to be vulnerable and recognize the struggle. And I think it it's also, so there's probably even in what we're talking about, this idea that teachers are supposed to be in charge of their classes, that they're supposed to have control that, these kids are just supposed to follow, which is, gosh, that's hard.
To think about, I don't think I thought about it. I knew that that situation was not healthy, but I don't think I thought about it as a toxic situation until just now when, while we're talking, I just tried to give my daughter the voice of how maybe she could respond to that or what to do next.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:34:54] And then the most important thing I would take from that is remember, like even with a teacher and a student, that's still a power dynamic where one person. The teacher should, like, I don't want to say should, but it's expected that the teacher has more power than the student. Well, you know, when you're in a situation, if there's 30 kids and they all have as much power as the teacher, that is a problem.
Like they are going to overtake that teacher, like for our world to survive, there needs to be power dynamics, but the child grows up. She's understands that all relationships are not that way. At some point, you start to get these types of relationships where you share power and I stand in my power and you stand in your power and we take turns.
It's not one person powering over the other person.
Damaged Parents: [00:35:43] Right. And I think I've also seen where. If a teacher can come down from that power and bring the child into the flock and say, I see you're struggling, how can I help? I used to struggle too, then they could be on the same team. Okay.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:36:02] Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
Damaged Parents: [00:36:04] And, especially if there are learning disabilities or anything else, I mean, Talk about humbling going into a school or in school environment with learning disabilities or challenges, not getting the information and then being told you, you, you. But at the information is not even being given to you in a way you understand.
I mean, no wonder we get behavior issues in the school environment and yeah, that's really interesting now that I'm kind of taken a deep, I love getting to interview you. You're helping me think of a deeper understanding of what's happening in that dynamic. So kind of back to the twenties, let's say a 20 year old is listening and they're recognizing.
that, oh, maybe I did that. So what would be your steps to even not just starting to recognize it, but also starting to change the relationship. So it's the, or your, how do you gain that toxic person proof or start to at least work towards that? Once you start recognizing it.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:37:05] If there was one message I could give to the whole universe is find relationships where people play by the same set of rules. Okay. In kindergarten, we were taught to take turns. Okay. And I see women who are in their fifties. In relationships with men who are thinking, well, maybe if I just work harder or I'm nicer, or I'm kinder, or I get more sex, then he will learn how to take turns.
And if I know it's always his turn and it may be a sister, it may be a coworker. It's always their turn. Doesn't have to be in romantic relationships. But if there's anything I could teach the next generation, it's find relationships where there's an equitable power balance. That both people take turns and play by the same set of rules,
Damaged Parents: [00:37:47] And I think what I heard you say in that also, which not maybe not directly said is you can't make someone learn how to take turns.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:37:56] if they are an adult and they don't know, no, that's the falling in love with potential that's. I love people for who they are. And I sometimes I'll, I hear, I am bringing back to the romantic relationships, but you know, when it's like, let me write a dating profile for the person you're actually with lies.
Sometimes cheat sometimes confuses me, always. Never know where I am hide things from me. Like if this was your dating profile, what'd you choose that person? No, but you are choosing them. Just cause you've already got years invested does not mean you're not still choosing them.
Well, I love people for who they are. No, because you said that was a dating profile. You wouldn't choose them. So you love people for who you hope they will be.
Damaged Parents: [00:38:36] right. So how does someone, if they're that person who's loving someone for who they hope they will be? How do they. Start loving people for who they are or recognizing that that's where that person is at. I think that makes sense.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:38:49] It's funny because we think about it narcissism and that's like, oh, they think the rules don't apply to them are obsessed with image. They're obsessed with whatever. And we don't see the flip side of kind of how we want to say enabling behavior, because that feels like victim blaming. And I'm so far from that.
Because I call it smart girl syndrome or smart guy syndrome, and it's like, well, if I just work harder, Then the relationship will be better if I just work harder, they'll stop cheating on me. If I just just work harder, they'll stop yelling at me. If I just work harder, my parents will see me as, individual person.
Damaged Parents: [00:39:23] Can I interrupt you? Why I want to understand how you came up with smart to call that smart person syndrome. If you will.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:39:29] Yeah. Yeah. So people talking about codependency a lot. I codependent relationships with adult children, codependent relationships with. Spouses like codependency. And that is like an, enmeshment. Okay. And some people will.
like have these like vacuums that they feel like they don't even exist if they're not in relationship with another, whether it be a child, whatever.
So they have this vacuum and he's like, let me like, suck into you. Like, I need you to need me. I need you to want me. I need you to. Okay. So that's codependency. But what I was seeing is a lot of people who were really good at a lot of things and were successful. And let's say your daughter's in math and you say, okay if calculus is going badly, and then you work harder, you get after-school tutoring, you find a new strategy, and then you get, you get the pay off and you make an a, okay.
So what you've learned is if I work harder, I can get the outcome I want.
Damaged Parents: [00:40:21] Got it. And so you're taking that and applying it to relationships. Calling it, the smart persons. Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:40:28] And it's a fabulous quality in every other area of life, except for someone who you're in a relationship with is like, you know what? You should work harder. You should be nicer. You should be more forgiving. You shouldn't let that bother you. You should, get over that. Right. Do you see?
So then that one person's just like, okay, I'll keep working. I'll keep working. I'll keep working. And the other person's like, this is great. You just keep working.
Damaged Parents: [00:40:50] It gets in my mind, I'm thinking it gets worse and worse and worse and worse. Not worse in the sense of, well, yes. Worse in the relationship sense. But the person who's getting who has all that power, you should do this. You should do this. You should do this. Once you achieve that, then they still have to have another should for the next day.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:41:10] it yesterday. Mo most of my clients are in their forties, fifties, sixties, and even seventies. Okay. So this girl was in her twenties. I was like, When she came into my group, I was like this huge, like, I want everybody to say all that. She's going to be saved from that. She's not spinning, that she joined a 28 rather than 58.
Like I want everyone cause they run. It was like, this is so wonderful. She hadn't had kids with anyone yet. Like everybody was like celebrating. I wish I had known this Lynn right. So she's with this guy, he had her $11,000. He lived with her, she took care of his dog. He had some other ex-girlfriend that he'd also gotten her to pay for some things, so he's like a mooch right.
And this girl one of the fights I had was she had left two bites of food on her plate, and then didn't like, throw it away or something. And I said, do you recognize the difference in you're in trouble for having leaving two bites of food on your plate? And he's not in trouble for owing you $11,000.
He never paid back. Okay.
Damaged Parents: [00:42:11] right. And you were doing air quotes saying that
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:42:13] Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. For the podcast. Yeah. But it's really hard when you're immeshed in it. And it's your it's like the goldfish. He doesn't know if his water's dirty. That's the only water he knows.
Damaged Parents: [00:42:24] right?
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:42:25] So when you're swimming in that, it feels like, oh, I need to be more understanding about the $11,000.
And I need to do better about not leaving those two bites of food on my plate. So he doesn't get mad.
Damaged Parents: [00:42:38] Yeah. Ouch.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:42:39] But from the outside perspective, it's like, that's crazy.
Damaged Parents: [00:42:42] Yeah, but I could see when you're in it,
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:42:44] yep. Because the smart girls I need to do better. I need to be self-responsible. I need to be conscientious. I need to take my, I need to own my part in the relationship. These are fabulous qualities. As long as you're not with a toxic person, if you're with a toxic person, they will eat you alive.
Damaged Parents: [00:43:02] I totally seen that right now. We just so easy to take advantage of that. And then for the other, for that person, then to start feeling like you need to walk on eggshells around them and then you're tiptoeing and they're getting what they want. And
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:43:20] Telling you, they're not, that's the key. So they're pulling the flip and I said, do you know what that tells me about what a good girlfriend you were, then? The things you were getting in trouble for, were two bites of food on a plate. Who's getting in trouble for two bites of food on a plate, no one, right?
Damaged Parents: [00:43:39] what do I care if somebody wants to leave two bites of food on their plate, right? Like
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:43:43] Let's train you to keep off shells and keep working harder. And I had to find things to nitpick. And I said, that tells me you were a really good girlfriend. If that's.
the things they're having to find to nitpick.
Damaged Parents: [00:43:58] Yeah.
Yeah.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:43:59] fascinating.
Damaged Parents: [00:44:01] It, it really is. I mean, I'm just surprised at the time where's we're coming up on our hour, if you will. And I'm thinking while we could keep talking for a long time, because you have this way of making. Making it super simple to understand and putting it in, in giving me an example of a situation that it's like, oh, $11,000 versus two bites of food and just that big difference there.
It helps me too, that the aha goes off. The epiphany happens in my mind of, oh, that's what that looks like. Now I can recognize when the next time something like that happens, because I think a lot of times we're left to figure out because they're there. I'm assuming I bet she had that yucky feeling in her gut.
Something was wrong, but she couldn't put her finger on it.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:44:58] And and if you're a conscientious, smart, intelligent person, who's been able to create success in other areas for life in her mind, she's thinking this isn't that big, big of a deal. I'll just, won't leave the food on my plate the next time. It's a very simple fix. So if I say, whoa, you should leave the relationship.
She's like what? You it's just two bites of food. I got in trouble for. But it's the Seesaw. Remember I said fine relationships for both people play by the same set of rules and shared, or it's that Seesaw is like way out of balance. It's always your fault. It's always the blames on you. You're always in trouble for little things and they get away with big things.
Right. That that's the dynamic. And thank you for saying that my literally my life purpose is to change the language around this to make a very complex issue. Simple to understand because I kind of, it's not funny, but I kind of giggle it like, oh, domestic violence awareness and it's like, oh, really?
Do we not? Were we not aware that it was wrong to hit your lover? Like. Do we not do we have to have like a method of awareness to say that, you know, people shouldn't look, people they're married to the number one killer of pregnant women I read this week. I can't remember where the statistic was, was like by murder. It's not no birth, it's murder by their spouse or their lover, whatever. Do we really need a domestic violence awareness campaign to know that that's a problem, but it's like, again, going back to the cancer example and when we're only studying stage four cancer, it seems like that is so far away from us.
The idea that I could be pregnant and my lever would kill me, seems so far away that I missed
two bites of food and $11,000.
Damaged Parents: [00:46:40] Yeah.
I really love that perspective.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:46:43] Yeah, but it's the same thing. It's power dynamics. You are getting played. I am getting played. Right. And in those situations, and I am doing all the work of the relationship and you're telling me it's not
Damaged Parents: [00:46:55] Okay. Three things that the listeners can do today. I'm thinking number. One's gotta be go get your book Becoming Toxic Person Proof by Sarah Ramsey.
Sarah K. Ramsey: [00:47:08] So I have Becoming Toxic Person Proof, Clear the Confusion and Learn to Trust Yourself as the subtitle of that, because it is a very confusing topic and I work diligently. I craft my message every day. I recraft my message every day, too, to make it more simple, to understand. And. Learning to trust yourself.
Right? And then I have my own podcast, which is Toxic Person Proof. I put out five podcasts a week. I put out an insane amount of podcasts interviews, and I have all the world's leading experts in this space. Pretty much any author that you've seen in this space or would love to have been on podcasts and, and say, great.
A great connection and really in depth conversations on the subject. And you can also join my Facebook group Finding Love and Success After a Toxic Relationship. Yeah.
Damaged Parents: [00:47:56] Fantastic. Sarah Ramsey. I'm so glad we got to have you on the show today.
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. We've really enjoyed talking to Sarah about how she was able to shift from attracting toxic relationships to healthy ones. We especially liked when she joked that people give her a lot of credit by assuming she only had one toxic relationship in her life.
And we loved when she pointed out the difference between two bites of food and $11,000. To unite with other damaged people, connect with us on Facebook. Look for damaged parents. We'll be here next week still relatively damaged see you then
