Episode 12: I Climbed Everest with One Lung
Sean Swarner
Bio: Sean Swarner has broken through defined human limitation in order to redefine the way the world views success.
Sean was diagnosed with two different and unrelated forms of cancer, once at the age of thirteen and again at the age of sixteen. Despite a prognosis of just fourteen days to live and having been read his last rights, Sean astounded the medical community when he survived both these brutal diseases. Sean realized that after defeating cancer twice, no challenge would ever be too great, no peak too high.
Sean proved his theory when he crested the peak of the highest point in the world (Mount Everest) with only partial use of his lungs. As the first cancer survivor to do so, Sean decided to continue climbing and has since topped the highest peaks in Africa, Europe, South America, Australia, Antarctica, and North America, thus completing the “7 summits”.
After having completed the 2008 Ford Ironman World Championship in October, Sean has his sites set on summiting the “peaks” at the top and bottom of the world. This will designate Sean as the first person to ever complete what will be known as the “Ultimate Adventure Challenge”.
Find Sean here:
Sean Swarner - Inspirational Speaker, Author & Adventurer
Welcome to CancerClimber.org - CancerClimber.org
Podcast transcript below:
Welcome to the Relatively Damaged Podcast by Damaged Parents were crushed, breathless, scarred people come to learn. Maybe just, maybe we're all a little bit damaged. Someone once told me it's safe to assume. 50% of the people I meet are struggling and feel wounded in some way. I would venture to say it's closer to 100%.
Every one of us is either currently struggling or has struggled with something that made us feel less than like we aren't good enough. We aren't capable. We are relatively damaged and that's what we're here to talk about in my ongoing investigation of the damage self. I want to better understand how others view their own challenges.
Maybe it's not so much about the damage, maybe it's about our perception and how we deal with it. There is a deep commitment to becoming who we are meant to be. How do you do that? How do you find balance after a damaging experience? My hero is a damaged person. The one who faces seemingly insurmountable odds to come out on the other side hole.
Those who stared directly into the face of adversity with unyielding persistence to discover their purpose. These are the people who inspired me to be more fully me. Not in spite of my trials. But because of them. Let's hear from another hero. Today's topic include sensitive material, which may not be appropriate for children.
This podcast is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended as advice. The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them.
Today, we're going to talk with Scott Swarner. He has many roles in his life, son, husband, climber, businessmen, and more. We'll talk about how he was told at 13 and 16, that death was eminent.
What emotions were like during his recovery from cancer and how he found the strength to climb Mount Everest with one lung. Let's talk!
Damaged Parents: [00:02:13] Well, Sean, welcome to relatively damaged.
Sean Swarner: [00:02:18] I appreciate it. Thanks.
Damaged Parents: [00:02:19] Yeah. So you have an amazing story of struggle and hope that started when you were really, really young. Not a baby, but you know, teen years, right?
Sean Swarner: [00:02:34] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's kind of when my life started. A lot of people think, Oh, you know, my parents got together nine months later, right. That's not really where my life started. My life started. When I really started paying more attention to everything that's happening. And that's when I was, uh, I was diagnosed with advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma as a 13 year old.
And I think that's when, you know, my life was one on one path and then it just changed to a completely different direction. I was at normal, I guess if there was a, if there is a normal for a teenager, but I was a normal teenager and having a great time with my life until, you know, all of a sudden this, big hurdle decided to throw itself into my way.
Damaged Parents: [00:03:14] what were those feelings like at that age?
Sean Swarner: [00:03:18] Yeah. I honestly, at 13 it was a little different. Because, and I say different because it was, I also had another cancer at 16 and when I was older, I understood what was going on the first one, because I was so young, I didn't really understand what death meant. And I don't, I don't think anybody really has a concept of that when they're just, 12, 13 years old.
And I think that played into my survival, my me being alive because I was malleable. I didn't really understand what I was dealing with. The doctors diagnosed with advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma and they told my parents, I had three months to live. So I think it hit me more on the aspect of.
Not being able to be with my friends, not doing what at, at that point I thought was important. But on that journey, there, there was a moment when I was actually 60 pounds of a weight and I was bald from head to toe in the bottom of the shower floor, on my hands and knees weeping, um, pulling. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I was pulling chunks of hair, out the drain crying me eyes out. And I think it was because I, I knew I was different, you know, I definitely stood out like a sore thumb. And, eighth grade, freshman year in high school, it's a popularity contest. And I wasn't popular. Like I said, I was massively overweight.
I had no hair on my body, so I think it was. It was definitely an emotional struggle. There were some sometimes when I felt helpless, hopeless, but I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and focused on what mattered most to me, which wasn't the latest hairstyles and clothes. It was literally fighting for my life.
Damaged Parents: [00:05:00] And did your friends and schoolmates, if you will, did they know that you were going through this and what you were struggling with?
Sean Swarner: [00:05:08] They did actually, I grew up in a really small town in Ohio called Willard, Ohio. And I think we had 5,000 people, maybe, maybe four stoplights and a bunch of stop signs. So everybody knew our business. You know, everybody knew everyone else's business. So if the teachers, I think at, at that, at that time, the teachers explain to the students why Sean looked the way he did.
And, you know, they, they really helped with that. I think education went a long way. So I, I wasn't bullied. I was very fortunate. I wasn't bullied because I think the bullies knew I was going through enough as it, as it was. But I think that educational aspect of, Hey, this is why Sean looks this way. And it just, I think it was, it was also very helpful living in a small town. So I had that support system for sure.
Damaged Parents: [00:05:54] Yeah, that sounds . Actually really amazing. We can't say what's going through these other kids' minds, you know, and like you're saying, hopefully I wasn't bullied because they were educated. But did you guys, did your family talk a lot about the feelings that are going on during the struggle of cancer at that first one?
Like, were you able to express I'm scared. I'm sad. I'm what did, maybe some of those conversations look like?
Sean Swarner: [00:06:20] I think because I saw my mom and my dad emotional, I felt like I had to grow up really quickly. And I, I actually, I, I, I wrote a book, I've written a few books, but the first one I wrote, I actually transcribed my mom's journal that she wrote when I was going through it. And that was probably one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do in my life.
And in there she said something about Sean he's he looks so strong. I've never seen him cry or something like that, you know? And she wrote, I, I cry every night and I think I did that. Because I want it to be that pillar of strength to help support my parents. Because I think in my mind, I knew I was going to survive, but I didn't, I couldn't handle it.
I didn't like seeing my parents going through what they're going through because of me.
Damaged Parents: [00:07:09] so did you maybe think part of that was your fault and that you needed to fix it?
Sean Swarner: [00:07:15] I, I think at, at some point I did, but later on, you know, as, as I got better and as, as we slowly talked about it and going, and going back to your question too, we really didn't talk about it much. It was just kind of like, okay, this is, this is a pause in our life and we're going to do everything we can to get through this.
Let's go. I think that might be one of the reasons why I'm alive, but later in my life, I, I look back at it and that's how I dealt with a lot of the trauma, you know? Cause it's, it's very difficult going through that. And a lot of people who went through cancer who had difficult treatments, I mean, there are a lot of have PTSD.
It might sound weird because everybody always associates. So associates that with the military or something else, but it happens. And I looked at that and. Realize, well, it happened to me like I'll, I'll go into a hospital. Cause everywhere I go, I try to share my survivorship story with the patients and I'll, I'll smell saline and it'll bring back a memory and all of a sudden I'm like, Oh my God, I gotta get out of here.
Cause it brought back all these emotions.
Damaged Parents: [00:08:13] and what's that feeling like when you're, when you smell the saline, what's that feeling? How do you know it's PTSD?
Sean Swarner: [00:08:20] Well, I, I think it's because I'll remember something. So in my second cancer, I actually was in a medically induced coma for a year. And what's weird is I'll smell something. That'll bring back a memory from when I was laying in the hospital. Like of my mom and my dad sitting in the corner of the hospital room in the La-Z-Boy chair.
And all of a sudden I can remember them crying or I'll remember taking this little character, this, this stuffed animals about this big, that had two eyes and a mouth. It was like, it's like almost like led lights and whenever there was noise, he would beep. And I remember once when I was on Malarone for nausea.
And when I was in that medically induced coma, I remember taking a trip to the moon and back.
Damaged Parents: [00:09:03] well, that was exciting.
Sean Swarner: [00:09:05] I know. Right. But I remember seeing my mom over there just like literally wigging out, freaking out because her 16 year old son is high as a kite taking the trip to the moon.
Damaged Parents: [00:09:17] Oh, that must have been, was that scary for you and for her, like,
Sean Swarner: [00:09:23] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't know if you have kids, but can you imagine have a 16 year old who's fighting for his life? And the second cancer I was told I had 14 days to live and you can't take that from a child. , you can't jump in that person's body and fight for them. It's cancer is, not an individual disease, but it's, it's an individual fight.
Damaged Parents: [00:09:47] Yeah. And when they told you 14 days, 16 years old, what came up for you?
Sean Swarner: [00:09:55] That one. I do not remember because that's when they started because no one's ever had Hodgkins and asked and sarcoma before. So exactly. Well, I had the first one, I was over the first one and then I got a second primary cancer. So no one's ever had Hodgkin's and Hodgkin's lymphoma and Askins Sarcoma. And the second time around with the second cancer again, it was a second primary cancer.
So that's one of the doctors didn't know what to do because no one there's no protocol for this. They didn't have any, anybody previously diagnosed with those two cancers. They just threw everything at, you know, a bunch of chemical cocktails. And that's when they put me in a medically induced coma.
So if I was in the hospital, say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then I'd be released to go home, to have my, body build back more, more blood cells, hemoglobin and stuff like that. Then I'd go back in Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, that would be one site, one full cycle of my treatment. And every time I was in the hospital for that, that cycle, that's when they knocked me out.
So I, I don't remember because in the process of one day they found the tumor on an x-ray. They did a needle biopsy where they stuck it in through here and took out the aspirated part of the tumor. They put in a Hickman catheter, which is like a permanent IV. They took out a lymph node. They cracked up my wrist, perform a thoracotomy, remove the tumor, put in drainage tube and started chemotherapy less than 24 hours.
That's how dire it was. So I don't remember past, hearing my mom and my doctor. Talking in the hallway, just based on my mom cut right to the chase. Hey, is it cancer again? The doctor said, yes. That's all I remember from then on it was a haze for the next 14 days.
Damaged Parents: [00:11:33] Yeah. So no emotion after that? Because it's, everything's going so fast. You just don't remember.
Sean Swarner: [00:11:39] Yeah, exactly. That. And I do remember thinking, Oh man, you gotta be kidding me. I got to do this again.
Damaged Parents: [00:11:45] Yeah. And 16, you're going to get your license or you just got it right.
Sean Swarner: [00:11:49] I, I was actually just going to get it. And as far as I know, I'm still the only person in Ohio. So with one race in Ohio, I'm the only person that'll have to have my driver's license picture taken with a hat on.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:01] Oh, wow. So they let you keep your, your Oh, wow. That's awesome. Were you able to keep that as a memento later on?
Sean Swarner: [00:12:11] I bet it has to be somewhere I needed to go find
Damaged Parents: [00:12:15] Yeah. Yeah. That will be fun to look at. Right. Okay, so you're 16 you've. So I want to understand. So you were put in the coma every week.
Sean Swarner: [00:12:25] Every time I was in the hospital
Damaged Parents: [00:12:26] So you would go in, go to sleep, wake up, go home for a little bit. Your body would recover and start all over
Sean Swarner: [00:12:33] Do it again.
Damaged Parents: [00:12:35] Oh my gosh
Sean Swarner: [00:12:36] that happened because I went in, it was rough. It was the, excuse me, the chemotherapy for three months. And then one month of radiation treatment. Where it had radiation Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And then I went through 10 more months of chemo. So when I was in the hospital for the chemo, that's when they, they knocked me out, it was David, give me something to just not remember.
So I was actually in the moment I was awake. It was almost like, almost like as a 1600, almost like I, I just, I drank too much and I blacked out that's what it was like. So I was actually awake, but I, I don't remember it.
Damaged Parents: [00:13:07] Got it. Okay. Now, when you were awake and you were at home, do you remember what that felt like to you? I mean, were you scared? What emotions were happening during that time?
Sean Swarner: [00:13:18] I, I think I had ups and downs. Right. But I think more than anything else, I was really focused on pushing forward. You know, the way I saw it was I had, I had two choices I can fight for my life or give up on that. And I, I didn't want to die. I didn't want to give up. And I knew that I had so many people who were, who were supporting me and wanted me to live.
And obviously I wanted to live too. So yes, I was scared, but at the same time I was motivated to continue forward, but I also learned to truly live in the moment and appreciate every day.
Damaged Parents: [00:13:55] Okay. Can you explain that and how you do that, especially coming from your teenage self. Right? How do you do that?
Sean Swarner: [00:14:04] I think for me, it, came easily just because of the other option was to, to constantly ask myself the question. What if, you know, what if I don't survive? What if this happens? What if that happens? You know, I didn't want to do that. So I learned to control my thoughts. Very, very well. One of them was through visualization.
Oh, visualize. I would actually visualize myself inside my body fighting the cancer. You know, I was, I was in a microscopic spaceship where I would unload missiles that had chemotherapy laden with them. So I think that helped a lot. So whenever I was not feeling good, I would picture myself in either inside my body or next year, swimming back and forth in the pool or winning the 50 meter breaststroke.
And when I had good days, I learned to focus on here. So just over practicing, being mindful of everything that was going on around me, I learned and trained my brain said, Hey, let's pay attention. I mean, one of the best ways to do that is to just take a break and breathe. I mean, even like right now, if, and I know you have headphones on, I was going to say, just take a deep breath and then relax, and then listen. And try to pick out five things that you hear. Yeah. In a lot of people don't understand that's being mindful. So I, I heard, I'm in Puerto Rico right now, which is why I usually live in Colorado, but we're turning my wife's house into an Airbnb. So I heard a rooster outside. I had a dog outside the AC here, that fan up here, and my wife's in the kitchen. So that's happening right now. And that's changed your brain to focus on the here and now, as opposed to, okay, what am I going to be doing after this? Where are we going to go? What do we know? Just stop wherever you are, just stop and listen, you know? And then eventually you can add in more senses, you know, what do you smell?
Pick out four or five things that you smell. So it really helps to focus your brain and just do it all the time. It's over and over again, it becomes a habit.
Now, did you figure that out on your own or did someone teach you that
I figured it out. And I think I did it because, when I was, when I was first trading and climbing and I went up Mount Everest, when I was going across those ladders, there are ladders that are, that span across crevasses. And if you literally take one step to the right or left by six inches, you're going to fall and plummet to your death.
So I focused on not, where am I going to go to camp one? No, I, I had to focus on where each step was going this step, then the next step, then the next step, then the next step. So I think that really helped as well, but also backing way up to the cancers. You know, I, I really had to do that because if I, if I.
Like I said, if I thought about the future, then I would give my mind permission to constantly come up with whatever crazy cockamamie idea it could invent by asking myself what if, well, what if this, what if that, what if this were, Oh man, I'm, I'm overwhelmed so, well, what if that doesn't happen? What if that doesn't happen?
What if that doesn't happen? Yeah. And then I started focusing on that and then slowly bringing it back more towards what I want it, as opposed to my brain going crazy and saying, Oh, well, there are so many things out there that can happen, you know, because whether you're you're focused on something positive or negative, that's what you're gonna do.
Damaged Parents: [00:17:34] so , when you first started having your, what if thoughts? Your, what if thoughts went negative and. You found, like if you will, you found yourself at the bottom of a crevice and how did you find the courage to climb out of that? I mean, it sounds like you had practice and it sounds like you knew you needed to, but do you remember any of the thoughts that went through your mind that said, okay, I'm having this bad thought.
I want to feel better. So how am I going to do this? You understand where I'm going?
Sean Swarner: [00:18:10] Absolutely. I think it was back in that shower scene though. Imagine what I was fighting for my life. And then I was 60 pounds overweight, a mess. And I think it was in that same moment. When I, when I realized that I could, um, either focus on not dying or focus on living. So I, I, I decided that again, I didn't want to focus on something negative.
I wanted to focus on something positive and I can only imagine how things would have turned out. If I told myself over and over again, hate don't die. Don't die because it's, it's, it's kinda like the, um, the analogy of if you're driving and you, all of a sudden, you start sliding on ice. You're going to slide to where your attention is, where your eyes are.
So if you're telling yourself, Hey, you know, I don't, don't hit that telephone pole and what's going to happen? You're going to smash right into it. So you need to guide yourself to somewhere else. And that's exactly what I did as opposed to focusing on what I didn't want. I focused on what I wanted, not the avoidance of what I didn't want.
Damaged Parents: [00:19:10] Yeah, because you're right. You're inevitably it's , you told the story of sliding on ice or focusing on a telephone pole. I think, um, the story I know is whitewater rafting. If you focus on the rock, you will inevitably hit the rock. And if you focus on where you want the boat to go, then the boat will go that way.
Sean Swarner: [00:19:30] Absolutely.
Damaged Parents: [00:19:31] yeah, that's a, that's a really. Important internal conversation. And so, and what I heard you say earlier is every time those thoughts came up, you would shift to what you did want. So maybe that thought came up. Did you just not listen to it? Did you acknowledge it and not listen? How did you do that?
Sean Swarner: [00:19:56] Well, I, I think in the moment it was definitely acknowledging and validating the fact that the thoughts were there, you know, cause cause dying. I mean, it's, it's a fear and it's still a shit I don't want to die and I don't think anybody wants to die. You want to live forever. But the fact of the matter is eventually everyone does die.
So I think what I did was I stopped myself and I realized, Hey, you know, these thoughts are coming in. Okay. They're just thoughts, , I'm in no danger right now in the moment I'm in no danger. It's my brain convincing my body to produce the adrenaline, to make me feel like I'm in danger, which induces that panic attack. It's the thought that initiates everything else. And when you realize that you're not in physical harm, it's your brain going crazy. However, those thoughts are real. Okay. But those, those thoughts don't have to elicit an emotion. So that's when I sat there and I realized, okay, well, this is okay. I'll just, I'll just, I'll let it go.
Yeah. That's definitely something to think about, but it's not happening right now. Again, being mindful. Okay, here I am listening to this, listening to that, smelling this, you know, I can feel, feel things. Okay. Everything's fine. Let it go. So acknowledge it. Yes. It's it's a fact it could potentially happen. I validate it.
Well, I'm afraid of that because I don't want to die, but that's it just let it go.
Damaged Parents: [00:21:21] That's some, that's an amazing tool to have at 16, I think. So from 16, you, you come out of your coma. And what inspires you? I mean, you've got an inspiring story already with learning. Just the thoughts, just the idea of how you deal with your, those negative thoughts, but what happens next?
Sean Swarner: [00:21:48] well, I went to, I went to college. I turned into Belushi from animal house. I had a wonderful time. I, I relived my teenage years. And it was, it was fantastic. It was, it was a very expensive party.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:03] A very expensive party. Is that
Sean Swarner: [00:22:04] party. Absolutely. Yeah. They had a great time. And then, uh, around the beginning of my junior year, I decided to get serious and I changed my major.
And I wanted to be a psycho oncologist, a psychologist for cancer patients that I went to grad school. I started studying there and that was the first time I actually stopped and took some time to focus on myself, looked in the mirror and thought to myself, who are you?
Damaged Parents: [00:22:30] So you went to college to be what, what was your first major?
What
Sean Swarner: [00:22:35] first major was, was molecular biology.
Damaged Parents: [00:22:38] okay. And, and later on you realize I don't want to do that. I want more of a, um, psychology, oncology, special. I want to specialize in that.
Sean Swarner: [00:22:49] yeah, I think it was because if, if you're going, if you're taking organic chemistry and immunology at the same time and you're partying too much, you've repeat, prepping authentic so well. So I just had to switch to something else I actually had passion for. And that was the mind.
Damaged Parents: [00:23:05] Yeah, I, you know, my sister is a instructor in, excuse me, my sister is an instructional assistant in a high school and also finishing her degree. And one of the things that they, that, , she has learned over time is that switching degrees is actually important. And because. A lot of kids go to go straight from high school to college and they think they need to know exactly what they're going to do.
Clearly you thought you did, and then realize maybe this isn't, I'm not passionate about this. And so did you have to give yourself permission to make that change? Or was it more like a desperate I'm miserably failing in this other area? And I want to do something that I find fun.
Sean Swarner: [00:23:52] Yeah, that's probably the truth. If that's true, that's probably hit. And I was taking an intro to psych class while I was also taking. The organic chemistry and immunology. And I just, I really wasn't doing very well with those other, other two, but I found the psychology class I was taking incredibly interesting.
So I decided to switch and was like, you know, I'm, I'm more interested in this than I am the science aspect of it. Okay.
Damaged Parents: [00:24:20] Yeah, psychology is fascinating to me as well. So , that's fabulous. Okay. So you're at college. You switched gears. What's next?
Sean Swarner: [00:24:32] Next was grad school. And that's when I was actually, like I said, I took the first time ever. I stopped and I looked in the mirror and I thought to myself, okay, well, who are you? You know, what do you want? And this whole time of, if I'm 16, 17 years old, where I finally got over and I was in remission, I was over the cancers.
I realized, you know, this whole time I've been dragging around this bag of issues because of the cancer. Cause I never stopped to focus on what it meant to me and how it impacted me.
Damaged Parents: [00:25:03] what were the, what was in that bag of issues for you?
Sean Swarner: [00:25:07] Oh, it was just the fact that I never really dealt with it. I think maybe going back to your initial question of my family, talking about those emotions we never did. So I think that really, really lent itself. To that self exploration and, and that, those, those deep questions that I had to ask myself, and it wasn't, it wasn't why me, it was more like, okay, well now I realized, and I have a better concept that I have the rest of my life ahead because going through the treatments, you know, going through the treatments, it was living literally day by day by day.
And there were nights. I went to bed, not house, wake up the next morning. So all of a sudden, now the doctor says, Hey, Sean, you're in remission. We'll have a fantastic life. My friends are happy. My family's happy. Everyone's ecstatic. Except for me, I'm like, okay, well the hell do I do now,
Damaged Parents: [00:25:56] Yeah. Oh yeah. I
Sean Swarner: [00:25:57] had no idea.
Damaged Parents: [00:25:58] Yeah, that would be confusing. Um, okay. I want to just go back two seconds to when you said something about going to sleep, not knowing if you were going to wake up, what was that like? Was it hard to fall asleep? Were you afraid to fall asleep? What was going on in, in those moments?
Sean Swarner: [00:26:18] Well, it was terrifying. I mean every, every, not every night, but a majority of the nights, every time I closed my eyes, I didn't know if I was going to open them again. No, there was, there was a moment when I remember the middle of the night, all of a sudden I just, I woke up and I was hovering above my body.
And I remember looking down at my body and that also was my brain. I don't know if it was the big guy upstairs, but I was just looking down at my body and it was a lifeless corps. And then I was sitting there thinking, okay, well I'm not ready. And then I felt like this giant push on my back and I woke up in the bed set straight up.
So that, , that happened a couple of times. And then it just the emotions of, trying to stay awake as long as I possibly could, you know, reading, doing something. But I, I eventually learned to train my brain to turn off, you know, I'm, I'm one of those people that, that, um, that other people hate because I can close my eyes and I can fall asleep at two minutes.
Now I'm out.
Damaged Parents: [00:27:20] that's awesome. I hate you.
Sean Swarner: [00:27:23] Exactly. Cause a lot of people are there. A lot of people are jealous. Like I lay there for 15, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. I look over my clock. It's an, hour's gone by no me. I'm just out.
Damaged Parents: [00:27:34] I've learned, it helps not to force myself or tell myself that I should be sleeping just to let it happen. Naturally. You know, either I'm going to fall asleep or I'm not, and if not, then I get up and go do something.
Sean Swarner: [00:27:48] Yeah, well, it's weird because the harder you try to fall asleep, it doesn't work. It's like go to sleep, go to sleep. No, it doesn't work that way.
Damaged Parents: [00:27:56] It makes it harder. It makes it worse. I think it just is horrible. Absolutely horrible. So, um, okay. So you go into psychology with, with the specialization and I'm thinking what I'm kind of what I'm hearing a little bit is that that's probably, when you started asking yourself and getting a better understanding of.
What had been happening inside of you. And that's when you asked yourself those hard questions, what were some of those hard questions?
Sean Swarner: [00:28:27] The biggest question was why, you know, why did I go through cancer? And I, for the longest time, I still, think even now, , it goes back to when I was sick. Like why me? But the fact of the matter is it was me. It is me. What am I going to do about it? So I'm not going to sit there and go crazy trying to figure out why, you know, why not. So it happened and then another one was, okay, well, what am I going to do with my life? How am I going to impact people? What's my purpose, those sorts of questions. And then I realized, well, I've been given a gift with, I believe that mind, body connection. And I wanted to really reach out to the world and help inspire people and help them in uncertain times, believe that it's a, it's a temporary state, not a permanent condition.
Damaged Parents: [00:29:19] it really is. So you get your master's right. You dropped out. Okay.
Sean Swarner: [00:29:28] So as I was working on my master's and my doctorate at the same time, I figured I could get my master's on the way, because my doctorate, but I was also working three or four jobs at the same time. So that just, that just didn't function very well either. Then I realized, okay, well, let's, let's try to figure out a way to reach the cancer community.
And I kept thinking bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And then it literally came up with Mount Everest as the highest platform on earth to scream hope. And that's what my brother and I decided to do. So I decided, okay, well, I, after research, I found that no cancer survivor had ever climbed Mount Everest.
And I thought, okay, well, if someone's going to do it, why not me? And why not for the right reasons.
Damaged Parents: [00:30:09] Yeah. So your why not from earlier that went negative. Why me too, like that victim mentality became why not me?
Sean Swarner: [00:30:18] exactly.
Damaged Parents: [00:30:19] And so you did that research. I mean, you were already into sports and everything. I take it.
Sean Swarner: [00:30:28] Yep. I was, I was exactly I, but I did, I didn't have a climbing background, but I had a swimming back on running background. Every fact.
Damaged Parents: [00:30:36] so what did that take for you to prepare for your journey and what emotional struggle or lessons did you learn along the way?
Sean Swarner: [00:30:49] The first lesson I learned was because I was getting my masters in Jacksonville, Florida. Uh, the first lesson I learned was not many mountaineers come from Florida. I actually, I packed up my stuff and our Honda civic, we drove to Colorado. So that was, that was the first lesson you learned. And then the second one was literally that, persistence or, um, that's what I'm looking for.
Um, doing something every single day is more important than intensity, you know, persistence is more important. Um, what's the word I'm looking for?
Damaged Parents: [00:31:23] I guess just consistency. Maybe
Sean Swarner: [00:31:25] Exactly. Yeah. Consistency is more important than intensity. Because if, if, if I'm going to climb Everest or if I'm going to run a marathon, if I'm going to do anything like that, it's not, I'm going to wake up tomorrow and train for five days and go do it.
It's going to take some training and it's just like anything in life. You just have to have a good pattern to have developed good habits to stick to it.
Damaged Parents: [00:31:47] So what you're saying is yes, you can climb Mount Everest and in order to get there it's little steps over a long period of time along the path, I guess is perhaps what I'll say
Sean Swarner: [00:32:02] Absolutely. I mean, that's the only way to climb Everest one step at a time.
Damaged Parents: [00:32:07] and I'm thinking doubt would pop in every once in a while on this journey , from, you know, dropping out of school to actually climbing Everest. So can you tell us a little bit about that part of your journey?
Sean Swarner: [00:32:22] Well, the, doubt was actually trying to find a place to live when we first moved to Colorado, because we lived out of the back of my Honda civic and we can't for. Like three months before we even found a place to live. So that was the biggest concern, I think. Um, and I remember pretty much, yeah, we were, we were homeless.
We were camping for awhile. And I remember, um, one night we got about three feet of snow and I rolled over to my brother and it sounds like we, we need to find a place to live. This is not gonna cut it. So that's when he, um, He, and I both went to town in Estes Park, Colorado, and we started looking for different sponsors and I knew we had to have sponsors to find Everest anyhow, but we found a company called Evergreens on Fall River and they were like a hotel.
They're like a lodge rental company and they helped us out.
Damaged Parents: [00:33:17] okay. So you had no, I'm sorry about that. You had no experience in climbing. And you're determined to climb Mount Everest. You've been homeless for three months and you go find a sponsor and you have no, there's nothing to show them. How, what did you say to them and how did you get them to believe in you?
And that you could do that?
Sean Swarner: [00:33:41] I, I told them my store and I told them that in eight months I was going to be leaving for Nepal.
Damaged Parents: [00:33:47] You just said, Hey, I'm leaving. Whether you, whether you're with me or not.
Sean Swarner: [00:33:51] Absolutely. Yeah. I was like, you know, we would love to have your support. Um, if not, we'll move on to someone else and we'll just keep banging on the doors until we get that support.
So eventually we got them on as, as a friends now. Um, and then we had Gore-Tex come on. Board. Chanel has come on board. Um, Alsolo Boots come on board. So after we got the first sponsor and the first support, it's just, everything fell in line.
Damaged Parents: [00:34:15] So would you say if there's an entrepreneur or someone who's got a dream out there that's listening right now, does it? Cause I think what I'm hearing you say is maybe you don't have to have all the answers, but you've got a dream and you can get other people to believe in that dream.
Sean Swarner: [00:34:31] Absolutely. I think that's. That's a good way to put it. And I also think before you see it come to fruition, you have to believe it is going to come to fruition. So if I went on this, this, I guess, life journey thinking, I think I can do this. It never would have happened as opposed to I am doing this
Damaged Parents: [00:34:53] Got it. Okay. So you're saying it's not, I think I can do it. It's I know my, I can do this and
Sean Swarner: [00:35:01] Yeah. A little, yeah, a little engine that could was wrong. It's not, I think that can, I think I can't. I know I can.
Damaged Parents: [00:35:07] that's fabulous. So just that little shift in language, it sounds
Sean Swarner: [00:35:15] You have to, again, going back to perspective, you know, you, you, you get what you're looking for and having the right perspective, even like in walking. If you're, if you're walking, you're telling yourself don't trip, don't trip, you're going to fall on your face.
Damaged Parents: [00:35:29] Yeah.
Sean Swarner: [00:35:29] if you tell yourself, stand tall, walk strong, it's the same concept, different way of looking at it in once, you
Damaged Parents: [00:35:38] Sorry, I'm sorry. I keep talking over you. I so kind of, , shift from the negative perspective to the positive perspective. So again, like we were talking about earlier with, for me with the river and the whitewater rafting, it's go, don't go towards the rock, go towards the dream.
Sean Swarner: [00:35:58] Right. And we've been taught that for. And, and not by any parent's fault or because this is this, isn't what they want for the children, but it's from such a young age. Hey, don't do that. Hey, don't get hurt. Hey, be careful. You know, we're implanting that negativity in our mind. As opposed to, Hey, have a good time, you know, focus, focus on staying on the ladder or whatever.
It might be, whatever the positive twist to that could be. And I think that's what we're, we're taught at such a young age is so negative, even though people are thinking to themselves, well, I'm trying to support you. I'm trying to, , I'm trying to protect you. I'm trying to do whatever, but psychologically it's from a negative standpoint, Hey, when you say don't do something, uh, you know, a perfect example is, you know, you, you go on a diet, you know, the instant, you hear a diet and you think it's restrictive, it's negative.
But if you turn around and, and, and look at it from the aspect of, you know, nutrition, or I want to be healthy, No, I, I, why, why, why are you trying to lose weight? Oh, it's because, you know, I, I feel bad about myself. No. A good example is why, why do people work out? Most of the time is because, Oh, I hate my body.
No, you work out because you love your body. And what you're doing is good for you. You're not trying to get rid of something. You're trying to gain something.
Damaged Parents: [00:37:18] right. That's a big deal.
Sean Swarner: [00:37:22] And I think when, when people start looking at it from a different angle, they realize it's more positive. That way
Damaged Parents: [00:37:30] It really is. It really is. Okay. So you've got your sponsors, you're preparing for this journey. What did that, what did your daily schedule look like? I mean,
Sean Swarner: [00:37:44] training wise. Oh geez. I did something every day to train. Uh, it was, it was insane. I ended up working my way up to carrying a hundred pounds of rocks in my backpack up longs peak, which is 18 miles round trip, 14,256 feet. And I went up there in a bad day, you know, planning on bad days. Cause I thought that if I went up longs peak on a bad day, a bad day on long speak was probably better than a good day on Everest.
Damaged Parents: [00:38:15] and was it.
Sean Swarner: [00:38:17] No, it wasn't, Everest was beautiful..
Damaged Parents: [00:38:22] Okay, but I mean, I think that's really interesting that you chose the bad days to go up there because in my mind also, I think I'm thinking, we're thinking along the same lines, at least. I'm going to challenge myself to the most difficult, possible place. I could challenge myself because then maybe when I get to the next step, it might just be a tad bit easier.
Sean Swarner: [00:38:50] Absolutely. I, I train so hard that I'm thankful when the event comes around, cause I could stop training. So I overtrain almost, especially with eat well, cause that way I know I'm I'm over-trained for the actual event. And I, I look forward to, I, I look forward to stopping training, I suppose,
Damaged Parents: [00:39:14] Is it, you think that maybe it becomes more enjoyable that way the
Sean Swarner: [00:39:18] the actual, I think so. Yeah, but I've also learned to love the process.
Damaged Parents: [00:39:24] Okay.
Sean Swarner: [00:39:25] I've I've I enjoy training now. I enjoy, I don't want to say I enjoy pain, but I enjoyed being uncomfortable because I know that's pushing me to become better.
Damaged Parents: [00:39:35] let's talk about those uncomfortable feelings. Tell us a time when you were uncomfortable and how that inspires you during that journey to going up Mount Everest.
Sean Swarner: [00:39:47] Well, the, the first while the first one that comes to my mind is I went out by myself first mistake, uh, climbing in the middle of a snow storm to go set up a tent, maybe a few miles from my car. So I parked the car at the trail head. And I started following a trail, um, because I could see what the trail was because they're a little like blue diamonds on the trees.
You know, you get to one, you can see the other one and you see the other one. Um, and there was also a split in the woods where I could see that look at F pretty obvious. So I get to an opening and I start setting up a tent. Again, another mistake is I didn't test the tent in the cold weather at home. So I'm trying to put this tent together and they look they're a little bungee cords inside the tubes that you connect together to make the structure.
It was so cold that those, that bungee cord wasn't pulling. So when I put the tube together, I had this, this enormous bungee cord at the end. So the tubes wouldn't stay together. I couldn't set up the frame of the tent. I couldn't do anything. So then I thought, okay, well, I might be able to dig a snow cave on that.
It'll just stay in my Vivi, meaning putting something on the outside of a sleeping bag. I thought to myself, okay, let's just get on it. So at this point, it's dark. I turned around to try to find my way back. And because there was so much snow, I couldn't even see where I came in.
Damaged Parents: [00:41:03] Oh,
Sean Swarner: [00:41:04] So I'm half completely lost in the middle of a dark light.
I had my headlamp on, couldn't see a thing, you know, followed my compass, heading back to where I thought I should go. Man, maybe about 30 minutes to an hour later, I thought I saw something reflecting in the woods and it was actually my license plate, reflecting back on my headlight. So that's how I found my car because my car was, it was a Honda civic, but it was black
Damaged Parents: [00:41:29] okay. So what were some of those emotions happening inside of you? Like
Sean Swarner: [00:41:35] freaking out.
Damaged Parents: [00:41:36] Where was your heart pounding? Were you starting to sweat? Were you nauseous?
Sean Swarner: [00:41:39] Absolutely all of that. So my heart started pounding. I started sweating, which is not good when you're in a cold weather, because then what happens is that your, the sweat is to your clothes and then you start to freeze. Your hair starts freezing, hotspots, freezing, everything was such freezing over. So then I thought, okay, I could feel a drip coming down.
Okay, slow down the worst thing that's going to happen. And this is where my brain went. It was the worst thing that can possibly happen. I bring out my, my sleeping pad. I put my, my, my sleeping bag on top of that. And they sleep out in the cold exposed without a tent, you know, that's the worst thing that could happen.
Um, and then I was like, okay, well maybe a bear comes in and chews my face. I don't know. But I didn't, I tried not going down that path, but I, I, again, being mindful to okay. Stop. What am I doing right now? I'm letting my emotions take control of me. I need to be in control because whenever anything like that happens, uh, you, you cannot lose control because you can't be emotional and you can't be logical at the same time.
You're like, okay, logic kick in, where do I need to go? This is what I need to do. And goals right there. How do I get there? How do I find my way?
Damaged Parents: [00:42:50] so did you first label the emotion and say, okay, I'm feeling anxious and then that helped you get into your logic mind, or how did you go from that panic to logic and calmness?
Sean Swarner: [00:43:03] I think I just stopped. I was like, okay. Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. What's going on here? You know, it's hot. It's crazy voices in there. Whoa. What's going on? I don't know. What's going on, you tell me? Like, okay, well you're sweating. Okay. I know that's not good. What do we need to do? I need to get rid of this, this other voice in my head.
So I'm back in control. And I said, okay, look, I know you're there to help support me in certain situations, fight or flight, but I need you to just be quiet for a second. And then I focused again where I needed to go. So I think it was that internal dialogue that really started paying attention to it.
Damaged Parents: [00:43:41] sounds like you've got a really neat inner voice to me.
Sean Swarner: [00:43:44] Yeah, we, we, we've learned to support each other, all these, all these voices in my head.
Damaged Parents: [00:43:49] Yeah, well, I mean, I talked to myself too all the time and I, you know, when those negative thoughts come in, sometimes I think of the, the whitewater rafting other times, I think of questions like, am I sure am I 100% sure that's true. I don't know. We'll see, you know, and then I start looking around for things that I do know, kind of like you're, you're breathing.
Take that breath. What do you know is happening around you right now named five things. It's weird that it's that fast that I could, that the human mind can shift into that. So I really do want to get into climbing every, so you did all this training. I know we're going to skip to the climb. What was that like getting to base camp , and that entire process.
And what were the emotions behind that.
Sean Swarner: [00:44:39] The process of getting to base camp was actually, it took two weeks to hike out. Um, and because base camp is at 17,600 feet, and that, that was higher than anything I ever climbed before getting to Nepal. So I remember when I was hiking up towards this last little deal, it's called the Shep and it's a pretty steep section.
And I had read that, you know, people who are climatized, they have more red blood cells, you know, more hemoglobin because there's less air. And to adapt for that, the body actually produces more. So that's why you need to spend time and altitude before you head on up. So I remember I was huffing and puffing.
I'm 27 at the time thinking I'm in the best shape of my life. And. I'm really struggling getting up this Hill and was some carrying a backpack in this at the time, my brain probably exaggerated. She looked like she was 90, like a 90 year old lady just right by me. I was like, my God never gonna make it. But I also realized that she's, you know, she was, she lived in Nepal. She lived at altitude, probably her entire life. And for her, it wasn't an issue. And then when we got to Everest base camp, then you just looking up at the mountain, you can't even see the summit. So you get to a camp three just, just below camp three.
So there were four camps from the, uh, the South side Nepalese side base camp and then four camps after that. And what a lot of people don't understand is it. I arrived at base camp, April 8th. I summited May 16th. That's how long it takes to climb the mountain. So about roughly a month and a half, you know, just over a month. And the reason is because, like I said, the higher you go, the less atmospheric pressure there is in your body. So your body has to readjust and , build more red blood cells. So we went from base camp to basically camp one and we would go up with a full backpack. We would come down with an empty pack and then we do just do shuttle runs back and forth, up and down, up and down, up and down.
Day after day. And then we would move from camp one to camp, two shuttle things up the camp to shuttle things up to camp three. And then when we were ready to go for the summit, push from camp four from 26,000 feet, we left, I want to say at 10:00 PM and I summited at nine 32 and then the next morning.
Damaged Parents: [00:46:57] Oh, wow.
Sean Swarner: [00:46:58] 12 hours of climbing.
Damaged Parents: [00:47:00] So, and you're not taking really any breaks when you're climbing the mountain.
Sean Swarner: [00:47:05] It's very slow because it almost seems like. Every step is a break, literally, you know, half, half a step, you know, and I, I wear a size 12, 13, so one foot here and then one foot, just half, you know, half a step there, half a step, but it's literally taking half a step and then just breathing 10, 15 times then taking another half step and then breathing 10 or 15 times because you can't pull in enough oxygen to sustain that.
Uh, the strain that your muscles are going through.
Damaged Parents: [00:47:36] so you're really having to think about breathing.
Sean Swarner: [00:47:39] Absolutely just literally in and out and with, because of fact I only have one functioning lung, but I taught myself how to breathe years ago and it's not through my upper chest. It's through my diaphragm and utilizing all of my capacity. Yeah.
Damaged Parents: [00:47:57] Right. Right. So when you, but when you did your quick breasts right there, it seemed like those were kind of shallow. I mean, I'm assuming it's because you're not on Everest right now, but when you're on Everest, I'm assuming that that has to be a very deep and is it deep and fast or deep and slow?
Sean Swarner: [00:48:15] And fast. So it's, it's weird. A lot of people say breathing on Everest is like breathing through a straw, but breathing through a straw is really difficult. You know, that I don't know where that came from, but breathing up there because the air is so thin, it comes in and out of your lungs so quickly and so easily. You know, and, and believe it or not, because of that, um, a lot of people develop what's called the Khumbu cough and the Khumbu is a section, the area in, in the South , of Nepal. And because you could, you can cost so forcefully up there. You don't have that pressure holding it back. People crack the ribs, coughing.
Damaged Parents: [00:48:49] Oh, wow. Okay. That would be a little scary.
Sean Swarner: [00:48:55] Yeah. Right.
Damaged Parents: [00:48:56] And I don't think I would want to cough up there though. Cause that would, I would be afraid I'm gonna break a rib.
Sean Swarner: [00:49:02] Yeah, but if you develop the Khumbu cough and you're constantly coughing over and over and over again, then that's, I mean, you could potentially break a rib
Damaged Parents: [00:49:10] okay. So you're on Everest. You're having to take these deep breaths. It's slow going. It sounds like. And are you, I mean, you left at 10 something and didn't summit until almost 12 hours later. It sounds like. And. Throughout that process what were your emotions? Did you have to have a lot of those conversations, those mental conversations with yourself throughout that journey?
Sean Swarner: [00:49:38] So going back to be positive and negative. I never once told myself don't stop. Because I think that's what it's, that's exactly what I would do. So I actually developed a mantra, every single step I thought to myself, the higher I go, the stronger I get, the higher I go, the stronger I get. And I did that literally for 12 hours.
And eventually my brain believes that just higher. I go, it's stronger. I get, because I wanted to focus on where I wanted to go. You know, I didn't wanna focus on falling to the right, I didn't want to focus on tumbling down the mountain. I wanted to focus on where I wanted to go. The higher I go, the stronger I get at the higher I go the stronger get.
Damaged Parents: [00:50:16] that's a great mantra. I think even if you're not climbing Mount Everest, maybe the Everest in your own personal life, right. Whatever your Everest is. So what was it like getting to the top?
Sean Swarner: [00:50:31] That was kind of like taking every emotion I've ever had and exploding it all at once. So initially I was, I was elated that I made it up there. I was super happy. And then all of a sudden I was super depressed because I had to, I had to go back down super happy that I made it up there and then super scared that I had to go back down.
And it was, it was all over the place, but. Well, one of the things that kept me going was I had a flag that was about this big, that had names of people touched about cancer and it was on a silk flag. And I had it in my chest pocket, close to my heart as a constant reminder of my bolt. And when I got to the top, I wrapped that around it.
So that's what kept me going as well. And I was just, I, I wept like a baby called my brother on my, on the radio. Cause he was down at base camp and I said, you know, I made it he's in tears, almond tears. He calls mom and dad with satellite phone they're in South Carolina. So it was probably, you know, 11, 12, maybe midnight their time.
And he is called them on the phone and says, at this moment in time, you have a son who standing on top of the world.
Damaged Parents: [00:51:35] that's amazing where they did. They cry too.
Sean Swarner: [00:51:39] Okay. Oh, I was trying, he was crying. Mom and dad were, everybody was in tears.
Damaged Parents: [00:51:43] Oh, now could you, because you were on the radio, could you hear the phone call with mom and dad or no? No, just got to hear about it. It's not a bad thing. So I like how you described all of that it was all of the emotions, the happy, the sad, the scared, the joyous, , cause I think sometimes that we, that things get accomplished at least for me in my life.
And then it's like, now what. And there's this fear of what happens next. So tell me what your thoughts and those emotions were when you were coming down the Hill or down the mountain. I should say not the Hill.
Sean Swarner: [00:52:23] I think coming down, I was literally on cloud nine. I was just super, super happy with everything I just accomplished. But I was also, I was excited to get home and take a shower. You know, a month and a half on the mountain and it was just no showers, just hot water and buckets. So my goal was okay, you know what?
I, I did it. Let's, let's get audio, let's get back to Katmandu and, let's get a beer and celebrate.
Damaged Parents: [00:52:55] okay. So, you know, you just finished climbing, Mount Everest, you get down, you've been on this high, you had this goal. Did you have the, those moments where it's like, Oh gosh, darn it. I completed that now. What.
Sean Swarner: [00:53:14] I, I did. And, and even, even now sometimes like, you know, I, I look at it and I've, I've climbed the pinnacle of the mountaineering industry to the highest mountain in the world. What's next. But I also realized that it's not about the destination. A lot of times it's about the journey. It's about the, the process.
Yeah, it's about enjoying what we have not looking at what we don't. So even though I climbed Everest, you know, the highest level of economy, I take group up Kilimanjaro every year. People always say, I'm going to conquer that mountain. You don't conquer them out, be calm for yourself. And I think I learned a lot about myself and I also realize that I didn't find the answers on top of a mountain, they've always been looking at myself in the mirror.
Damaged Parents: [00:54:00] wow. That's really poignant to realize that the answers are in front of me right now. Versus. A task that I
Sean Swarner: [00:54:11] Yeah, he's not out there somewhere.
Damaged Parents: [00:54:13] So knowing this, was it easier , to move on to your next steps too, because you're at this point, you know what your journey, so now it doesn't maybe really matter what it is you're going to do because the journey is what you're looking forward to. Or how does that work?
Sean Swarner: [00:54:31] I think I always have goals and I always have those end points I want to reach. But I've learned to really appreciate the process. So I'm, I'm working on the summit challenge, which is an online series of intentional challenges to help people elevate their lives, to where they want to go. And I'm working on the emails and the videos, and I'm getting a kick out of it.
It's fun creating something as opposed to just wanting to get to the end. No that that's, that's not it. And I think it's really helped me understand what my personal core values are and utilizing those personal core values. What means most to me to continue doing what I'm doing. And that's actually one of the first challenges.
I get people, a core values assessment, and they have to figure out what their personal, personal core values are. That's step one.
Damaged Parents: [00:55:18] Yeah. So it's almost like you have to figure out who you are and what you stand for.
Sean Swarner: [00:55:22] Absolutely because there are so many people in the world who are on autopilot. They need to take a step back and figure out what they want, not what social media wants them to one, you know, figure out who you are. You're a unique individual on a flat 8 billion people on the planet. You know, you can look up to somebody else, but don't emulate them. Be your own person.
Damaged Parents: [00:55:41] yeah, cause you're never going to be them anyway.
Sean Swarner: [00:55:43] Exactly. And as soon as you start chasing goals that other people have you lose who you are chasing your own goals, go after what you want, not what somebody else wants for you.
Damaged Parents: [00:55:52] for sure. For sure. Okay. So three things that you want the audience to know about finding hope in the midst of a struggle.
Sean Swarner: [00:56:03] I think I mentioned it before that it's a temporary condition, not a permanent state. Yeah, that's, that's probably the biggest one realized that this, this too shall pass and then it will get better. Um, and don't think, Oh, it's not going to get any worse. And because that's still negative, it will get better.
So focus on that. And I think that that's kind of, uh, a good segue into the next one. Focus on what you want, not the avoidance of what you don't want. So if you want things to get better, don't think, Oh, it can't get any worse. No, because it probably can. You have a focus on how, how it can get better. And then the third one, if anybody wants a, a free core values assessment, go to the www.summitchallenge.com or shoot me an email, Sean, Sean@cancerclimber.org .org, and I'll have no problems sending it because I think people need to understand what motivates them at the core level.
So understand who you are.
Damaged Parents: [00:57:03] Yeah, I am really grateful that I got to have this conversation with you today, Sean.
Sean Swarner: [00:57:08] I appreciate that. I'm grateful for your time as well. You know, I love connecting with people. Everybody has a story, right? Everybody, you can learn something from everyone on the planet.
Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Relatively Damaged by Damaged Parents. We really enjoy talking to Sean about how he learned to have conversations with himself. And choose which voice he wanted to listen to. We especially liked when he taught us how to take a breath. To unite with other damaged people, connect with us on Tik TOK. Look for damaged parents. This podcast was sponsored in part by Arches Audio will be her next week still relatively damaged. See you then!
